Brexit - an unhealable wound? Watch

Poll: Is Brexit worth it?
No (4)
28.57%
Yes (10)
71.43%
TensorTympani
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#1
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#1
The damage that Brexit has caused to mainstream political parties and to the faith of the people in Parliament has been immense. I am a leaver, however the amount of damage Brexit is causing seems not worth leaving the EU. Will this damage ever be worth it? What will gain as a country that is worth putting so much strain on UK politics?
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ByEeek
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#2
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#2
No. The damage isn't worth it. Brexit has divided the whole country. You are either in or out. Them or us. There is no middle ground. No compromise. And to think the referendum was only called because of Tory infighting. It is a true trajedy.
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TensorTympani
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#3
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#3
So it does seem like an unhealable wound.
(Original post by ByEeek)
No. The damage isn't worth it. Brexit has divided the whole country. You are either in or out. Them or us. There is no middle ground. No compromise. And to think the referendum was only called because of Tory infighting. It is a true tragedy.
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z-hog
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#4
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#4
(Original post by TensorTympani)
So it does seem like an unhealable wound.
Don't fall for it, the problem with Brexit is the resistance from Remainers still committed to overturning it. That's the whole problem in a nutshell.
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winterscoming
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#5
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To me the deeper problem seems to be the way that mainstream, collaborative, consensus-driven politics has completely failed over the past few years. Now the doors have swung open to populism where consensus no longer matters, and drives us towards a place where democracy can be hijacked by those with extreme minority views instead.

Populism tends to thrive through opportunists offering seemingly "easy" solutions to extremely complex problems as a means of building personal support and make themselves appear legitimate (i.e. demagoguery) , despite the fact that any rationale for such solutions doesn't actually stand up to any form of logical reasoning or scrutiny, but this is able to happen as a consequence of the abject failure of those who would normally seek to build a consensus around issues, allowing the quick/easy (false) solutions to dominate by essentially refusing to stand-up to those people and failing to deconstruct their arguments.

Obviously if such quick/easy solutions had ever existed in the first place, they'd have been adopted a very long time ago, yet what we seem to have is one of those 'easy' solutions being enacted; except that far from being a solution to any of the problems which actually affect peoples' day-to-day lives, the country is further away from any real, workable solutions than it has ever been. By that I mean, solutions to problems like well-paid jobs in their local area (or jobs at all in some cases), affordability and availability of housing, quality and availability of public services, safety/security/crime, cost of living, public health issues, etc.

As is always the case with populism, the narrative of "either you agree with me or you're my enemy" now prevails; That tends to lead people into a position where they no longer bother to engage in any kind of logical, rational debate involving arguments that they disagree with, which in turn means that any kind of consensus over real solutions gets much harder to reach; indeed it seems that more people now, when faced with logic, would prefer just to ignore it altogether and instead turn their attention to attacking the people making those arguments at a personal level instead.

This ultimately leads us to a very difficult/dangerous position whereby identity politics is being used to shut down debate about real solutions to problems and to avoid being required to reach towards any kind of consensus over those solutions, since a consensus always involves compromise and requires people to accept things that they disagree with.
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Mossbourne
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#6
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#6
Unhealable? No. The only problem is the people who keep on trying to fustrate the democratically expressed will of the people. We wouldn't be in this mess if we had left on WTO terms on March 29th.
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winterscoming
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#7
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(Original post by z-hog)
Don't fall for it, the problem with Brexit is the resistance from Remainers still committed to overturning it. That's the whole problem in a nutshell.
Perfect example of my above post here. Turning your attention to simply blaming people instead of engaging in any form of logically reasoned debate.
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z-hog
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#8
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(Original post by winterscoming)
Perfect example of my above post here. Turning your attention to simply blaming people instead of engaging in any form of logically reasoned debate.
Come off it, your idea of a 'logically reasoned debate' is one leading up to Remaining and forgetting Brexit. In fact, most Remainers sound like children.
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winterscoming
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#9
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(Original post by z-hog)
Come off it, your idea of a 'logically reasoned debate' is one leading up to Remaining and forgetting Brexit. In fact, most Remainers sound like children.
A logically reasoned debate is a debate using logic and reasoning. Perhaps that means you agree then, that the rationale for Brexit has collapsed since the vote took place due to all the arguments previously in favour of it turning out to be false, with no other credible arguments left in favour of it, and that there is no logic nor reasoning behind it.

Otherwise, your comment here is a fine example of using personal ad-hominem attacks against people, which is nothing more than a simple logical fallacy designed to avoid having to engage with any kind of debate.
Last edited by winterscoming; 2 weeks ago
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barnetlad
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#10
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#10
I think that regardless of the outcome it will take a long time to heal. Every bit of bad economic news will be blamed on it for years as well.
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Smack
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#11
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#11
(Original post by ByEeek)
No. The damage isn't worth it. Brexit has divided the whole country. You are either in or out. Them or us. There is no middle ground. No compromise. And to think the referendum was only called because of Tory infighting. It is a true trajedy.
The divisions already existed, and also seem to exist in some other western countries.
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z-hog
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#12
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#12
(Original post by winterscoming)
Otherwise, your comment here is a fine example of using personal ad-hominem attacks against people, which is nothing more than a simple logical fallacy designed to avoid having to engage with any kind of debate.
There's nothing to debate, you speak from a Remain perspective and I represent the view that Brexit must be implemented no matter what. That means an independent UK, not one tied and subjected to the EU in all most relevant forms. The need for a debate itself only exists in the eyes of Remainers, everything they do and say is aiming at Remaining only. It's even hypocritical of them to pretend they are very keen to deliver on Brexit whilst doing their best to sabotage it behind the scenes, they want to reverse Brexit and nothing else.
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AmmarTa
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#13
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#13
(Original post by z-hog)
There's nothing to debate, you speak from a Remain perspective and I represent the view that Brexit must be implemented no matter what. That means an independent UK, not one tied and subjected to the EU in all most relevant forms. The need for a debate itself only exists in the eyes of Remainers, everything they do and say is aiming at Remaining only. It's even hypocritical of them to pretend they are very keen to deliver on Brexit whilst doing their best to sabotage it behind the scenes, they want to reverse Brexit and nothing else.
You're making allegations that Remainers sound like children, yet you stickle to the view that despite the country being able to change its mind and a swathe of the population doing so that the only way to "preserve democracy" is to continue on with the stupid path we've laid out for ourselves instead of taking the mature approach and looking at the facts that Brexit clearly isn't worth it. The country's decided that their initial judgement was poor and that remaining might be the best option and so instead of going for a "hail Britannia Brexit means Brexit I want the empire back independent UK blah blah blah" approach, how about we actually do something productive and remain like most of the rest of the world seems to be recommending us to do.

TL;DR - It's not childish to change your mind based on facts but it is childish to stick with your broken view, knowing its broken, just because you initially supported it. Fix up and stop calling people children when you don't even have the maturity to accept the fact that people, politics, and the world aren't static and can change their minds. Also stop personally insulting people to try and improve the image of your point, it makes you look like a muppet.
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z-hog
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#14
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#14
(Original post by AmmarTa)
You're making allegations that Remainers sound like children, yet you stickle to the view that despite the country being able to change its mind and a swathe of the population doing so that the only way to "preserve democracy" is to continue on with the stupid path we've laid out for ourselves instead of taking the mature approach and looking at the facts that Brexit clearly isn't worth it. The country's decided that their initial judgement was poor and that remaining might be the best option and so instead of going for a "hail Britannia Brexit means Brexit I want the empire back independent UK blah blah blah" approach, how about we actually do something productive and remain like most of the rest of the world seems to be recommending us to do.
You sound like God, exactly what I don't have the time for anymore. Yeah, you know alright what the country has decided and thinks, based on all the factual evidence, blah, blah... kid's stuff.
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TensorTympani
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#15
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#15
Did the people who voted for Brexit think that Brexit would cause this much chaos and damage to the UK as whole when they voted for brexit? And if they did know that this much damage would be caused what outcomes of Brexit did they weigh these negative points out with in order for them to vote for Brexit?
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TensorTympani
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#16
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#16
Brexit has really managed do a lot of damage to the country in many ways which one could never even imagine of.
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ByEeek
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#17
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#17
(Original post by Smack)
The divisions already existed, and also seem to exist in some other western countries.
Of course. We are divided from everyone due to the fact we are all unique. However it is only when someone draws a line in the sand and makes people choose which side stand that those divisions become a reality. We weren't as divided pre 2016.
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Mossbourne
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#18
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#18
Anyway the "People's Vote" on this thread isn't going terribly well - 67% leave, will we peasants have to vote again for the satisfaction of our EU masters - Lisbon Treaty in Ireland...
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ColinDent
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#19
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(Original post by TensorTympani)
Did the people who voted for Brexit think that Brexit would cause this much chaos and damage to the UK as whole when they voted for brexit? And if they did know that this much damage would be caused what outcomes of Brexit did they weigh these negative points out with in order for them to vote for Brexit?
When I voted for Brexit I expected parliament to abide by the result, but instead they're trying to stop it and have caused what is happening now.
In answer to the poll it's a yes from me and a vote for the Brexit party in the upcoming EU parliamentary elections.
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ColinDent
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#20
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(Original post by TensorTympani)
Brexit has really managed do a lot of damage to the country in many ways which one could never even imagine of.
Politicians, not brexit.
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