Brexit - an unhealable wound? Watch

Poll: Is Brexit worth it?
No (4)
28.57%
Yes (10)
71.43%
ByEeek
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Mossbourne)
Anyway the "People's Vote" on this thread isn't going terribly well - 67% leave, will we peasants have to vote again for the satisfaction of our EU masters - Lisbon Treaty in Ireland...
Agreed. How dare those EU tirants give us free trade, clean seas, cheap roaming charges, airline compensation, data privacy and human rights. The less of all that progressive muck like that we have the better!
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ColinDent
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#22
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#22
(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. How dare those EU tirants give us free trade, clean seas, cheap roaming charges, airline compensation, data privacy and human rights. The less of all that progressive muck like that we have the better!
And are pushing on towards a European Superstate.
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ByEeek
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#23
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#23
(Original post by ColinDent)
And are pushing on towards a European Superstate.
That would be Project Fear on the Brexit side of the argument. It is in the myth bucket as Turkey joining.
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ColinDent
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#24
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#24
(Original post by ByEeek)
That would be Project Fear on the Brexit side of the argument. It is in the myth bucket as Turkey joining.
Not really it is and always has been the ultimate goal of the EU, decentralisation of powers from nation states back into the EU, it's been going on ever since it became a political entity and has shown no signs of stopping.
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Mossbourne
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#25
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#25
(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. How dare those EU tyrants give us free trade Then why are they in a trade war with America?, clean seas Which we could do ourselves, cheap roaming charges My provider has *no* roaming charges, airline compensation What?, data privacy GDPR is useless and just means you must fill in umpteen forms and human rights Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus Act, UN Declaration - all done without Brussels bureaucrats. The less of all that progressive muck like that we have the better!
Responses in bold.
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winterscoming
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#26
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#26
(Original post by z-hog)
There's nothing to debate, you speak from a Remain perspective and I represent the view that Brexit must be implemented no matter what. That means an independent UK, not one tied and subjected to the EU in all most relevant forms. The need for a debate itself only exists in the eyes of Remainers, everything they do and say is aiming at Remaining only. It's even hypocritical of them to pretend they are very keen to deliver on Brexit whilst doing their best to sabotage it behind the scenes, they want to reverse Brexit and nothing else.
Your view that it must be implemented no matter what has does not appear to have any logical reasoning to back it up with, which is presumably why you are avoiding debate - simply that you don't appear to have a sound position from which to argue from. That seems to be the reason why you choose to use personal attacks against people whose opinions you disagree with instead.
Last edited by winterscoming; 2 weeks ago
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TensorTympani
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#27
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#27
But Brexit invoked all of the negative factors of the politicians to come out.
(Original post by ColinDent)
Politicians, not brexit.
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ColinDent
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#28
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#28
(Original post by TensorTympani)
But Brexit invoked all of the negative factors of the politicians to come out.
They agreed to the referendum, they agreed to article 50 being activated, but they don't really agree with the result of the referendum and are trying to stop it.
What is the problem here, our decision to leave the EU or the parliamentarians unwillingness to act upon it?
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TensorTympani
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#29
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#29
I think that it is the parliamentarians unwillingness to act upon it, and the people know it is the parliamentarians unwillingness to act upon as they have shown in the council elections with both mainstream conservative and labour parties losing lots of seats.
(Original post by ColinDent)
They agreed to the referendum, they agreed to article 50 being activated, but they don't really agree with the result of the referendum and are trying to stop it.
What is the problem here, our decision to leave the EU or the parliamentarians unwillingness to act upon it?
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ColinDent
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#30
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#30
(Original post by TensorTympani)
I think that it is the parliamentarians unwillingness to act upon it, and the people know it is the parliamentarians unwillingness to act upon as they have shown in the council elections with both mainstream conservative and labour parties losing lots of seats.
Yep, so the problem is not brexit per se, it's the politicians.
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ByEeek
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#31
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#31
(Original post by ColinDent)
Not really it is and always has been the ultimate goal of the EU, decentralisation of powers from nation states back into the EU, it's been going on ever since it became a political entity and has shown no signs of stopping.
Of course. But then Brexit happened. And populist Italy and France and Hungry. And Poland is no longer the darling of new states. And there is the small matter of immigration. There is more pull away from closer integration in Europe than support for ever closer Integration. No doubt things may change but right now the EU is united in principal but not by heart and sole.
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ColinDent
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#32
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#32
(Original post by ByEeek)
Of course. But then Brexit happened. And populist Italy and France and Hungry. And Poland is no longer the darling of new states. And there is the small matter of immigration. There is more pull away from closer integration in Europe than support for ever closer Integration. No doubt things may change but right now the EU is united in principal but not by heart and sole.
Cannot disagree with you on most of what you say, but the problem is that the beaurocrats in Brussels cannot see the issue that many within the EU are experiencing, what exactly have they done to address the immigration problem, how are they listening to the millions across Europe that are telling them the system is broke? The answer is that they are doing nothing, because to them the principles of the 4 freedoms are more important than the people that have to live with them, and that they are still, regardless of what they can see is happening, determined to continue on the path to ever closer union.
There is no compromise with these people as was shown with Cameron's negotiations pre referendum but they are in for a huge kick in the nuts come 23rd of May when, I believe, Eurosceptic parties will have their biggest return ever in an eu parliamentary election.
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Smack
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#33
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#33
(Original post by ByEeek)
Of course. We are divided from everyone due to the fact we are all unique. However it is only when someone draws a line in the sand and makes people choose which side stand that those divisions become a reality. We weren't as divided pre 2016.
I partially agree. I would say that Brexit caused the preexisting divisions to become more clear, by having an issue to take sides on.
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Andrew97
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#34
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#34
Another referendum wouldn’t help matters. Why would leave have any confidence that if they win again that remain would accept the result. If leave lose, they would argue why should they accept the result. It could easily cause a further breakdown in trust.
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TensorTympani
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#35
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#35
It looks like matters are getting worse and not any better in the near future.
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ByEeek
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#36
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#36
(Original post by ColinDent)
Cannot disagree with you on most of what you say, but the problem is that the beaurocrats in Brussels cannot see the issue that many within the EU are experiencing, what exactly have they done to address the immigration problem, how are they listening to the millions across Europe that are telling them the system is broke? The answer is that they are doing nothing, because to them the principles of the 4 freedoms are more important than the people that have to live with them, and that they are still, regardless of what they can see is happening, determined to continue on the path to ever closer union.
There is no compromise with these people as was shown with Cameron's negotiations pre referendum but they are in for a huge kick in the nuts come 23rd of May when, I believe, Eurosceptic parties will have their biggest return ever in an eu parliamentary election.
I think that on immigration there is no tangible solution. If you were turfed out of your home at gun point / drought / conflict I think it reasonable to assume you would manage to get into whichever country you felt safe in regardless of any immigration measures that might be in place.

The problem as I see it is that folks like you are inclined to believe the more extreme elements of politics and their unproven promises that they can do something about it. And what we end up with is forced detention and worse as well as a general errosion of civil liberties and the rule of law, both of which you ironically feel have been taken away from you by the EU. You have to appreciate that when you build walls (legal or physical) to keep people out, you also limit and trap yourself in.

This is certainly something that is starting to happen under Trump. It is only the checks and balances that are stopping his true rath from being unleashed on people he decides he doesn't like.
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TensorTympani
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#37
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#37
Brexit sure does deserve a :bump:
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revolver777
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Andrew97)
Another referendum wouldn’t help matters. Why would leave have any confidence that if they win again that remain would accept the result. If leave lose, they would argue why should they accept the result. It could easily cause a further breakdown in trust.
This right here is the problem with a second referendum. If you take the logic used by a lot of remainers for wanting a second vote on Brexit, then it's impossibe to accept the result any more than the first. Among the reasons given -

"new information coming out"... Except, new information comes out after every vote, including every GE. Things people weren't aware of, say about our ever integrating membership of the EU and what that would look like in 2030 if we remained. What legislation would we have signed up to by then? Would we still have unanimous voting for sensitive issues? Eurosfleet? The 14 billion Euros investment to reduce national control on defence procurement? The CFP? minimum harmonised PPR? We need to know what the future holds for all these projects and matters and what exact effect it will have on UK industries, or we don't 'have enough information' to hold a referendum.

"16 & 17 year olds who couldn't vote/changing demographics"... Demographics also change after ever vote, so we'd need to have a referendum every year, because there would be 17 year olds who couldn't vote in ref2.

"1st one invalid due to illegal spending"... Now this is the most interesting one. What we know about public votes is that a) they're far from perfect, and b) to this date there hasn't been a single squeaky clean one where no foul play occurs to some degree. So I'd like to know exactly what this impenetrable barrier scenario looks like, which will ensure every transaction towards campaign groups is 100% legit, that no untoward play occurs by any campaigner to gain an advantage, and to reduce outside interference by foreign parties to zero. Otherwise you have the exact same problem.
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ColinDent
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#39
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#39
(Original post by ByEeek)
I think that on immigration there is no tangible solution. If you were turfed out of your home at gun point / drought / conflict I think it reasonable to assume you would manage to get into whichever country you felt safe in regardless of any immigration measures that might be in place.

The problem as I see it is that folks like you are inclined to believe the more extreme elements of politics and their unproven promises that they can do something about it. And what we end up with is forced detention and worse as well as a general errosion of civil liberties and the rule of law, both of which you ironically feel have been taken away from you by the EU. You have to appreciate that when you build walls (legal or physical) to keep people out, you also limit and trap yourself in.

This is certainly something that is starting to happen under Trump. It is only the checks and balances that are stopping his true rath from being unleashed on people he decides he doesn't like.
No, I dislike and disagree with the whole principle of the EU as a political entity, and that is a very long held belief that has nothing to do with anything that anyone else has said or done.
So if you would be so kind as to not try tell me what I am thinking it would be greatly appreciated.
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ByEeek
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#40
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#40
(Original post by ColinDent)
No, I dislike and disagree with the whole principle of the EU as a political entity, and that is a very long held belief that has nothing to do with anything that anyone else has said or done.
So if you would be so kind as to not try tell me what I am thinking it would be greatly appreciated.
I wasn't responding to your views on the EU. I was responding to your views on immigration. No amount of borders will stop immigration. BTW - do you ever plan to get married or have a life partner? Just curious like.
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