Abortion in NI should be legalised? Watch

AzureCeleste
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Sharmarko)
Your wording is fine, it makes sense practically - it's not nice to be hurt, so morally it's not good to inflict hurt onto others.


However, if we use sentience as the ruling for abortion, then it's still a grey area. What if you were to go to sleep tonight, and never wake up? You are in a coma, and no longer have the function to perceive or feel anything. Since you have lost the ability of sentience, is it now in my moral right to freely kill you?

My argument is that there is no moral cut-off point for abortion - any time period you pick, where the fetus now "has a heartbeat" or "can feel pain now" or "has this arbitrary number of neuron cells" is silly and flawed. My stance is abortion is immoral, it doesn't matter when it happens.


I'm not pro-choice, but I'm not pro-life either. I'm just anti-abortion. Abortions shouldn't be handed out like free sweets on Halloween.








Then they should be well aware that by using contraception, it's never been marketed as 100% effective. They have not been lied to or mislead.
Not allowing abortions is being pro-life- what alternative is there????
It's immoral 'to kill' something which is not viable outwith the body. You are 'killing' cells all the time every day of your own, and that's allowed, but to kill a few cells isn't???

Also for contraception- what's your thoughts on rape then, where the woman had no choice?
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Lagia
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#22
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Again, no sex >>>> than the best contraception out there. I think you are trying hard to remove the responsibility from individuals.

If a woman wants to have sex and she thinks hard about it, then she makes a more informed decision.
People are always going to want to have sex outside of having children and will always take that risk. They shouldn't be having sex thinking well get an abortion after but it should still be there in case something does go wrong and they get pregnant. Also there are rapes in which the woman had no choice and couldn't even choose to use contraception
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Sharmarko
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#23
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#23
(Original post by AzureCeleste)
Not allowing abortions is being pro-life- what alternative is there????
It's immoral 'to kill' something which is not viable outwith the body. You are 'killing' cells all the time every day of your own, and that's allowed, but to kill a few cells isn't???

Also for contraception- what's your thoughts on rape then, where the woman had no choice?
1.) I'm anti-abortion in the sense that I don't think abortions should be regularly handed out as treatment. There are a few, extremely rare, situations where I think an abortion is the best outcome, but the best outcome can still be massively immoral. I don't think we should ignore each and every factor just to keep a life alive - that is silly, we need to look at the bigger picture and put things into account.

In my ideal world, if someone wanted an abortion, they would have to apply for one and go through a clinical panel where their reasoning for an abortion are interviewed by judges consisting of professionals like psychiatrists and other specialties.


2.) My body cells are alive. A fetus is alive. However, the fetus has undeniably more potential than a single one of my body cells.


3.) When it comes to sexual assault and pregnancies resulting from sexual assault, then bare this in mind; it is not a good argument to use an extreme situation to justify the average. The average person doesn't have an abortion due to rape. Infact, rape consisted of less than 1% of abortion reasoning in most studies of America in 2016.
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AzureCeleste
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#24
(Original post by Sharmarko)
1.) I'm anti-abortion in the sense that I don't think abortions should be regularly handed out as treatment. There are a few, extremely rare, situations where I think an abortion is the best outcome, but the best outcome can still be massively immoral. I don't think we should ignore each and every factor just to keep a life alive - that is silly, we need to look at the bigger picture and put things into account.

In my ideal world, if someone wanted an abortion, they would have to apply for one and go through a clinical panel where their reasoning for an abortion are interviewed by judges consisting of professionals like psychiatrists and other specialties.


2.) My body cells are alive. A fetus is alive. However, the fetus has undeniably more potential than a single one of my body cells.


3.) When it comes to sexual assault and pregnancies resulting from sexual assault, then bare this in mind; it is not a good argument to use an extreme situation to justify the average. The average person doesn't have an abortion due to rape. Infact, rape consisted of less than 1% of abortion reasoning in most studies of America in 2016.
Well currently abortions aren't just handed out- the woman needs to have justifiable reasons for it to happen.

(will come back and edit this later for my response to the other points)
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Wired_1800
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#25
(Original post by Lagia)
People are always going to want to have sex outside of having children and will always take that risk. They shouldn't be having sex thinking well get an abortion after but it should still be there in case something does go wrong and they get pregnant. Also there are rapes in which the woman had no choice and couldn't even choose to use contraception
It is down to responsibility. We are not talking about rape, but if a woman is raped, i think she should give the child up for adoption and not kill it.
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Lagia
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#26
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While only 1% of abortions are because of rape thats still around 5000 abortions (based of the 2015 stats as i couldn't find newer one). We're not trying to justify all abortions by mentioning rape, but saying abortion is immoral neglects the life of the mother and those around her.
Abortion shouldn't be something you can just go an get, right now you need two medical professionals and I would definitely say there should be more than that. However the majority of people don't get an abortion because they just don't want a baby. They do it because they don't feel prepared or think they can handle it
(Original post by Sharmarko)
1.) I'm anti-abortion in the sense that I don't think abortions should be regularly handed out as treatment. There are a few, extremely rare, situations where I think an abortion is the best outcome, but the best outcome can still be massively immoral. I don't think we should ignore each and every factor just to keep a life alive - that is silly, we need to look at the bigger picture and put things into account.

In my ideal world, if someone wanted an abortion, they would have to apply for one and go through a clinical panel where their reasoning for an abortion are interviewed by judges consisting of professionals like psychiatrists and other specialties.


2.) My body cells are alive. A fetus is alive. However, the fetus has undeniably more potential than a single one of my body cells.


3.) When it comes to sexual assault and pregnancies resulting from sexual assault, then bare this in mind; it is not a good argument to use an extreme situation to justify the average. The average person doesn't have an abortion due to rape. Infact, rape consisted of less than 1% of abortion reasoning in most studies of America in 2016.
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Lagia
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Adoption can easily lead to a bad quality of life which I don't think the child should have to suffer through

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4475346/ Although the vast majority of adopted individuals are well adjusted, population-based studies have reported an elevated risk for psychological maladjustment in adopted as compared to representative samples of non-adopted children
(Original post by Wired_1800)
It is down to responsibility. We are not talking about rape, but if a woman is raped, i think she should give the child up for adoption and not kill it.
Also while education about sex should be the first step there will always be people who this doesn't reach and abortions should be open to these people so the baby doesn't have to live a terrible life

This basically all comes down to Sanctity of Life vs Quality of Life
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londonmyst
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#28
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No.
Legalizing abortion on demand in NI would do more harm than anything else.

NI is a very different environment to both England and the rest of the UK- in terms of legislation, economically, the barnett formula and a very socially conservative social climate.
The hardline religious influence wielded by both the orange order and fundamentalist churches is such that any powerful lobbying campaigns to bring free taxpayer funded abortion on demand to NI would only be met by a furious reaction that risks bringing utter chaos to the streets once again.

My father has been pushing his pro-abortion agenda for decades.
He goes too far to attract much support from the pro choice atheist liberals of england.
Generates outraged ranting about "genocide of the unborn" amongst the usa bible belt brigade that profess to be pro-life.
Absolutely livid reaction in NI- even the few who support some abortion reform are vocal in their opposition.
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mgi
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#29
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#29
(Original post by AzureCeleste)
So what is morally right is based upon what most people what?
Really? Think back to the past when most people had and wanted slaves- that didn't make it right and now we look back and can't believe that was actually a thing
Yes true. I think this argument tends to boil down to when you think life actially starts and whether you think it is ever right to decide a person has a right to take another human being's life. It is such a difficult issue. I don't know is my answer!
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AperfectBalance
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#30
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Very interesting how quickly people can justify the mass murder of innocent lives by convincing themselves that "it isnt a person" or "its just a clump of cells"
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Lagia
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#31
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Well it isn't a person any more than an egg cell and a sperm cell. It doesn't even have sentience until 6 wees so why we consider it a person any more than we consider bacteria people
(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Very interesting how quickly people can justify the mass murder of innocent lives by convincing themselves that "it isnt a person" or "its just a clump of cells"
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Wired_1800
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Lagia)
Adoption can easily lead to a bad quality of life which I don't think the child should have to suffer through

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4475346/ Although the vast majority of adopted individuals are well adjusted, population-based studies have reported an elevated risk for psychological maladjustment in adopted as compared to representative samples of non-adopted children

Also while education about sex should be the first step there will always be people who this doesn't reach and abortions should be open to these people so the baby doesn't have to live a terrible life

This basically all comes down to Sanctity of Life vs Quality of Life
So you would rather kill a child than have them potentially undergo a potentially negative experience?? Wow!

Like I have written, people should do what they like but should be prepared for the consequence. You can have sex but then you should be required to pay to terminate the pregnancy
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AperfectBalance
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#33
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(Original post by Lagia)
Well it isn't a person any more than an egg cell and a sperm cell. It doesn't even have sentience until 6 wees so why we consider it a person any more than we consider bacteria people
Because if you leave sperm alone in its natural enviroment without any action nothing much will happen, same for an egg cell, if you leave a fertilised egg alone in its natural habitat its potential is to make a child therefore its importance is far far far higher than an individual sperm or egg.
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Lagia
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What I'm saying is that I'ts better to not live than live a life full of depression where everyday they think that their parents didn't love then and threw them away.
I respect your opinion but saying that a significantly higher risk of mental health issues is a 'potentially negative experience' is rather ignorant of the pain these people go through
(Original post by Wired_1800)
So you would rather kill a child than have them potentially undergo a potentially negative experience?? Wow!

Like I have written, people should do what they like but should be prepared for the consequence. You can have sex but then you should be required to pay to terminate the pregnancy
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londonmyst
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#35
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(Original post by AzureCeleste)
Well currently abortions aren't just handed out- the woman needs to have justifiable reasons for it to happen.

(will come back and edit this later for my response to the other points)
In practice, England has abortion on demand.

Free on the NHS for women/girls willing to provide their name, genuine contact information and occasionally proof of citizenship if sought.
Offered by private clinics for all females over 16 who prefer pay a fee in exchange for giving minimal information and bypassing the waiting list.
The reason for seeking abortion is rarely volunteered, sought or any discussions as to justifiability conducted.
Many doctors have informal agreements to countersign abortion paperwork already signed by particular colleagues.
Some blunder into legal grey area by signing blank abortion approval paperwork, where no patient name is entered and a second doctor is yet to sign.
I'm female and pro choice.
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gsmyth
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#36
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Guys, what about the people of Northern Ireland that have elected the largest party, the DUP which are against abortion of any kind with 10 seats in the Commons and 28 seats in Stormont? This is not an argument for which abortion is okay or not it is that all other legislatures in the UK have legalised it.
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Lagia
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Because if you leave sperm alone in its natural enviroment without any action nothing much will happen, same for an egg cell, if you leave a fertilised egg alone in its natural habitat its potential is to make a child therefore its importance is far far far higher than an individual sperm or egg.
If you leave a cancerous growth alone in it's natural habitat it will reproduce and form groups large enough to be kill us. They have potential. Does this mean we should let cancers attack our bodies instead of trying to treat them. The difference is that animals are sentient and as the embryo isn't until 6 weeks then I don't think it should be treated as if it is.
Also I just wanna say that abortions should only be given in circumstances that are/were beyond the mothers ability to influence them
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gsmyth
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#38
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NI is a very Conservative state so should it just remain the same?
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Lagia)
What I'm saying is that I'ts better to not live than live a life full of depression where everyday they think that their parents didn't love then and threw them away.
I respect your opinion but saying that a significantly higher risk of mental health issues is a 'potentially negative experience' is rather ignorant of the pain these people go through
I disagree. This is not a hypothetical situation. There are hundreds if not thousands of people, who were adopted and are aware that they were adopted. Most people don't spend their lives thinking that their parents did not like them. I think you are creating an OTT case. I seriously doubt many people, who were adopted or living in an orphanage or whatever would have preferred to have been aborted.

Also, people who come to this world by parents who want them still develop mental health issues. I dont think this point is strong enough to support the case for abortion.
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gsmyth
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(Original post by londonmyst)
No.
Legalizing abortion on demand in NI would do more harm than anything else.

NI is a very different environment to both England and the rest of the UK- in terms of legislation, economically, the barnett formula and a very socially conservative social climate.
The hardline religious influence wielded by both the orange order and fundamentalist churches is such that any powerful lobbying campaigns to bring free taxpayer funded abortion on demand to NI would only be met by a furious reaction that risks bringing utter chaos to the streets once again.

My father has been pushing his pro-abortion agenda for decades.
He goes too far to attract much support from the pro choice atheist liberals of england.
Generates outraged ranting about "genocide of the unborn" amongst the usa bible belt brigade that profess to be pro-life.
Absolutely livid reaction in NI- even the few who support some abortion reform are vocal in their opposition.
You are the only person in this thread who has answered this question directly.
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