Abortion in NI should be legalised? Watch

londonmyst
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#61
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#61
(Original post by gsmyth)
At what point should you be able to kill this baby?
That is a very difficult question to answer particularly when you phrase it in this way.
Answers are likely to very between individuals- according to their position on abortion, religion, when life is deemed to begin and the sanctity of human life.
Basically the age old gang of four abortion position: absolutist pro life (no abortions), pro life except in instances of double jeopardy, pro-choice freedom to choose abortion within the law for a variety of reasons and pro-abortion (abortion upon demand at any stage and for any reason, usually free of charge).

English law sets a maximum limit of 24 weeks for all abortions, except those for emergency double jeopardy abortions undertaken under exceptional circumstances to save the life of the mother.
Anything outside of these restrictions will likely be deemed outside the remit of both the law and nhs.

My mother came from an ultra traditionalist catholic family that rejected vatican ii reforms, she believes that life starts at conception and abortion should never be allowed under any circumstances.
My father sits at the other extreme of the spectrum: pro-abortion.
He believes that abortion should be provided free of charge upon demand, not subject to any reason/questions/delays and minimal paperwork to avoid leaving a paper trail identifying the woman having the abortion.
My father describes himself as pro-abortion not pro-choice.
He disagrees with all laws restricting abortion, wants no constraints on abortion at all and believes that abortion should automatically be provided free of charge to all pregnant females that want it on the same day that they request it.
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londonmyst
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(Original post by AzureCeleste)
It needs to be discussed though so that you are understanding what is being undergone and your reasons why
You don't just turn up and say 'I want an abortion' and the doctor is like cool and lets it happen
Often the consultation lasts for less than a minute and revolves around the lines of "I need an abortion today, how soon can you do it and how much is the fee".
That is exactly what does happen in many clinics, I have seen it time after time when I have come to support a rape victim.
Twice without a doctor in sight or directly involved, blank form was pre-signed and the nurse filled in the rest.
Chemical, not surgical.
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AzureCeleste
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Often the consultation lasts for less than a minute and revolves around the lines of "I need an abortion today, how soon can you do it and how much is the fee".
That is exactly what does happen in many clinics, I have seen it time after time when I have come to support a rape victim.
Twice without a doctor in sight or directly involved, blank form was pre-signed and the nurse filled in the rest.
Chemical, not surgical.
Chemical is slightly different though as that's more like the 'morning after pill'
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Usually abortion is down to personal responsibility- or rather lack of.
A lot of women also seem unable to understand that abortion is not a means of contraception and make a habit of "serial abortions" over a relatively short time.
But emergency lifesaving abortions are often an issue too.

"Lifestyle abortions" (requested for reasons of a woman's personal convenience) are estimated to constitute over 70% of legally performed UK abortions.
Probably a lot higher if the abortions undertaken due to foetal abnormality/disability were included within lifestyle.
But there are also other factors, such as double jeopardy emergency abortions to save the life of a pregnant woman who will die unless an abortion is carried out.
Fatal pregnancy medical scenarios like ectopic pregnancy or a very young pregnant child whose body is not developed enough to survive a full term pregnancy.
Also abortions related to saving the sanity and mental functionality of the pregnant woman; whether due to being pregnant as a victim of crimes like rape/incest, significant trauma arising from the prospect of carrying the pregnancy to term or a combination of the two.

OP isn't getting many replies focusing on answering his question about whether abortion in NI should be legalized.
Everyone's started commenting about other abortion related issues.
This topic has been discussed in another thread and my point is as follows: I agree to abortion in the rare case that there is a medical risk to the mother or child. This means that the mother is at risk of death or something extreme.

I don't support abortions for other cases esp the “lifestyle cases”, where some people use it as their go-to solution.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by EmCharles)
Then why do we have birth control and sex education? Shall we all go stop these if consenting to sex = consenting to pregnancy.
And abortion isn't an "easy option". It's a difficult emotional process that most don't take lightly. It's a last resort that women may choose for many valid reasons.
Women have fought for this right too. Stop acting like abortions will not continue if we ban them. We should be making them safe and humane, not shoving them into back alley surgeries.
Sorry I don't buy that. Like I wrote before, women who choose to have an abortion should pay for it themselves. They should be free to live their lives the way they please and should bear the consequences.
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londonmyst
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
This topic has been discussed in another thread and my point is as follows: I agree to abortion in the rare case that there is a medical risk to the mother or child. This means that the mother is at risk of death or something extreme.

I don't support abortions for other cases esp the “lifestyle cases”, where some people use it as their go-to solution.
It's all the same thread about abortion legalization in NI started by gsmyth.
But most users have forgotten about NI in their haste to push the fashionable feminist abortion lifestyle agenda "women's life, women's body- abortion on demand is every woman's right". :rolleyes:

I grew up with two parents at opposite extremes of the abortion argument.
Mother opposes all abortion under any circumstances- with no exceptions.
Father is pro-abortion, not pro-choice as he believes in no abortion restrictions at all and goes further than the law allows.
He is committed to taxpayer funded free abortion upon demand for all pregnant women, no delays, no questions and minimal paperwork.
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barnetlad
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Given the lack of a Northern Ireland Assembly, should it not be the subject of a referendum?
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Stiff Little Fingers
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Of course it should. Ignore your opinion on when life begins and whether its moral, it will happen either way. The difference between abortions being legal in Norn Iron and not legal isn't the difference between Norn Irish women getting abortions or staying pregnant, it's the difference between getting safe abortions under the supervision of a doctor, or endangering their health to force a miscarriage, or trying to travel to Eire or the rest of the UK to get one instead. The former is far safer and so is what should be preferred
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Wired_1800
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#69
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(Original post by londonmyst)
It's all the same thread about abortion legalization in NI started by gsmyth.
But most users have forgotten about NI in their haste to push the fashionable feminist abortion lifestyle agenda "women's life, women's body- abortion on demand is every woman's right". :rolleyes:

I grew up with two parents at opposite extremes of the abortion argument.
Mother opposes all abortion under any circumstances- with no exceptions.
Father is pro-abortion, not pro-choice as he believes in no abortion restrictions at all and goes further than the law allows.
He is committed to taxpayer funded free abortion upon demand for all pregnant women, no delays, no questions and minimal paperwork.
Yes, I agree that people jumped on the abortion train arguing for and against rather than responding to the central question.

I understand your parents’ view on abortion, but I’d agree with your mama. I think women should take more responsibility for their choices. It is hypocritical that some of them pick and choose where their rights lie.

I think free health care should be communal and not focus on people’s choices. We were not there when you had sex, so why should we pay for your choices?
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YaliaV
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You’ve tried to give this a different slant to the hundreds of abortion threads on here, but it’s the same as the others.
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londonmyst
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I think free health care should be communal and not focus on people’s choices. We were not there when you had sex, so why should we pay for your choices?
Yes.
During times of austerity, too much focus was being diverted away from essential life saving treatments and shifted to lifestyle procedures that should have been funded from personal savings or on credit.
It became something of a tradition.
There is a limited overlap between sexual choices and public health though.
Taxpayer funded contraception is something of a tradition and std treatment on the NHS helps avoid a public health crisis.

When it comes to the NHS, there is a widespread public presumption of both an automatic right to have demands acceded to and a never ending supply of funding for freebies.
Free abortions and ivf (in many regions) for whoever want either.
Free stomach stapling and lipo for the obese- no joke, a coworker was offered and declined because she's proud of her size.
Free cleavage enhancing surgery to help with porn star ambitions.
Free facelifts to help improve self esteem of average looking women or those who get depressed at the prospect of ageing past the 30s.
I'm an average looking female, makeup and avoiding cameraphones is good for my self esteem.
Being a source of financial burden to the taxpayer would depress me, when I need to see a doctor or have tests done I pay.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Yes.
During times of austerity, too much focus was being diverted away from essential life saving treatments and shifted to lifestyle procedures that should have been funded from personal savings or on credit.
It became something of a tradition.
There is a limited overlap between sexual choices and public health though.
Taxpayer funded contraception is something of a tradition and std treatment on the NHS helps avoid a public health crisis.

When it comes to the NHS, there is a widespread public presumption of both an automatic right to have demands acceded to and a never ending supply of funding for freebies.
Free abortions and ivf (in many regions) for whoever want either.
Free stomach stapling and lipo for the obese- no joke, a coworker was offered and declined because she's proud of her size.
Free cleavage enhancing surgery to help with porn star ambitions.
Free facelifts to help improve self esteem of average looking women or those who get depressed at the prospect of ageing past the 30s.
I'm an average looking female, makeup and avoiding cameraphones is good for my self esteem.
Being a source of financial burden to the taxpayer would depress me, when I need to see a doctor or have tests done I pay.
This is why people sometimes call for the NHS to be privatised. People abuse the system to the point that we pay for people’s lifestyles. We should not be paying for many of the services that you mentioned.

The fundamental issue that we have is that some people are clear burdens on the system from birth to death. I am not talking about disabled people or people in real need of healthcare. I am talking about those people who lean on the government for everything. That is why a woman subconsciously knows that she can get pregnant and go to the NHS to kill the unborn child for free.

For me, I don't think some of these services should be free. I think they should be paid for by those who use them. I certainly don't believe that abortion should be free. If a woman is crazy enough to kill her unborn child, why should we worry about her? We must do the right thing.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I think free health care should be communal and not focus on people’s choices. We were not there when you had sex, so why should we pay for your choices?
"We weren't there when you smoked, so why should we pay for your emphysema treatment?"
"We weren't there when you fell over, so why should we pay for your hip replacement surgery?"
"We weren't there when you ate red meat for 30 years, so why should we pay for your bowel cancer treatment?"

Etc.


What you've described is a frankly sociopathic attitude towards healthcare. There's no single payer system where you can say "if I'm not involved, I don't want to pay for it", the only way that works is if you go entirely private, and given that actively disbars the poorest amongst us from accessing healthcare, a purely private healthcare system is little more than social cleansing.
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Andrew97
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(Original post by barnetlad)
Given the lack of a Northern Ireland Assembly, should it not be the subject of a referendum?
Possibly, however if the “wrong” side win then we should rerun it until we get the right answer. 😉
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
"We weren't there when you smoked, so why should we pay for your emphysema treatment?"
"We weren't there when you fell over, so why should we pay for your hip replacement surgery?"
"We weren't there when you ate red meat for 30 years, so why should we pay for your bowel cancer treatment?"

Etc.


What you've described is a frankly sociopathic attitude towards healthcare. There's no single payer system where you can say "if I'm not involved, I don't want to pay for it", the only way that works is if you go entirely private, and given that actively disbars the poorest amongst us from accessing healthcare, a purely private healthcare system is little more than social cleansing.
That is why I wrote on another thread that there are strong arguments for a private healthcare even though I am against it.

I don't think smokers should get free healthcare or those who drink loads and develop problems etc. People should be held accountable for their actions. Many people are burdens on the system because they intentionally live rubbish lifestyle with the knowledge that the taxpayers will bail them out. That is why the NHS is in crisis.

If an old person with arthritis comes in to have a hip replacement, I am in a favour of that. However, if a stupid 24 year old, who likes to do crazy “tricks” on his BMX breaks his leg, he should cover his bill. If he knows that there is no safety net, he would think twice before doing stupid things.

To your point about poor people, many poor people are not living stupid lives and I think, sometimes, they think about the impact of their actions.

The NHS should be a free service for those who genuinely need it, so that their ability to pay does not impact on outcomes and life quality.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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Should have been legalised years back, they want to be as close to the UK as possible, except when it comes to abortion? makes sense i guess
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
That is why I wrote on another thread that there are strong arguments for a private healthcare even though I am against it.

I don't think smokers should get free healthcare or those who drink loads and develop problems etc. People should be held accountable for their actions. Many people are burdens on the system because they intentionally live rubbish lifestyle with the knowledge that the taxpayers will bail them out. That is why the NHS is in crisis.

If an old person with arthritis comes in to have a hip replacement, I am in a favour of that. However, if a stupid 24 year old, who likes to do crazy “tricks” on his BMX breaks his leg, he should cover his bill. If he knows that there is no safety net, he would think twice before doing stupid things.

To your point about poor people, many poor people are not living stupid lives and I think, sometimes, they think about the impact of their actions.

The NHS should be a free service for those who genuinely need it, so that their ability to pay does not impact on outcomes and life quality.
The NHS is in crisis because of years of underfunding & mismanagement at a ministerial level, Brexit resulting in foreign staff leaving without enough doing the training here to be able to plug those gaps, and being treated like a political football - not because people need to use it.

How do you define doing something stupid though? Trying to determine whether a person was responsible for their own injury/illness is incredibly arbitrary and has no justification - nor does talking about people as burdens to the state when looking after those who need it is the sole point of the state.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
The NHS is in crisis because of years of underfunding & mismanagement at a ministerial level, Brexit resulting in foreign staff leaving without enough doing the training here to be able to plug those gaps, and being treated like a political football - not because people need to use it.

How do you define doing something stupid though? Trying to determine whether a person was responsible for their own injury/illness is incredibly arbitrary and has no justification - nor does talking about people as burdens to the state when looking after those who need it is the sole point of the state.
Yes, I agree with you that the NHS has issues that you have mentioned. However, people have also abused the system and piled pressure on the system. I have direct relations who work at several levels of the service and they all point to the human element.

My cousin, who works in A&E, talks a lot about how people come in drunk or injured from fights or haven done something stupid. Just last week, she saw a patient who for some reason decided to skateboard in the park in the early morning. Obviously he got a bad injury and went to the A&E.

We are not even talking about those women who have consensual sex and gets pregnant, then she wants an abortion on the NHS.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Yes, I agree with you that the NHS has issues that you have mentioned. However, people have also abused the system and piled pressure on the system. I have direct relations who work at several levels of the service and they all point to the human element.

My cousin, who works in A&E, talks a lot about how people come in drunk or injured from fights or haven done something stupid. Just last week, she saw a patient who for some reason decided to skateboard in the park in the early morning. Obviously he got a bad injury and went to the A&E.

We are not even talking about those women who have consensual sex and gets pregnant, then she wants an abortion on the NHS.
The pressure from people needing the services wouldn't be an issue though if it were properly funded and managed, with adequate staffing levels.

I don't see why consensual makes a difference in that regard. Contraception fails, people make mistakes, people aren't ready to have kids, and while aspects of the pro-life argument insist otherwise, a child is not supposed to be a punishment.
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OctoberRain7
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Actually, I think our lack of abortion rights is more due to us not having had a government for more than two years. It’s not even really a moral issue any more: abortion is legal in the rest of the UK and it should be legal here. A lot of people can travel to get abortions, so all that this law really does is restrict abortions to those who can’t afford to travel or teens who can’t get permission, AKA the most vulnerable people.
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