Abortion in NI should be legalised? Watch

ByEeek
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For me this argument isn't about morals it is about consequences. If those calling for a ban on abortion were required to support financially and be a part of the lives of those unwanted babies, I think it pretty likely minds and morals alike would change very quickly.

Morality is a wonderful thing to inflict on others when it doesn't actually impact on yourself. Same goes for anti-gay laws. They don't affect those who call for them.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
The pressure from people needing the services wouldn't be an issue though if it were properly funded and managed, with adequate staffing levels.

I don't see why consensual makes a difference in that regard. Contraception fails, people make mistakes, people aren't ready to have kids, and while aspects of the pro-life argument insist otherwise, a child is not supposed to be a punishment.
A well-funded NHS would mask some of the issues like poor management and people abusing the system. Now it is in trouble, we can clearly see the issues esp with the human element.

I personally dont care what the reason is for wanting an abortion. As I have written many times now on this thread, the best contraception is abstinence. If people chose not to abstain, then they should bear responsibility. There are people who don't do drugs or take alcohol because they don't want the consequence, so they abstain. Life is very simple, yet we choose to complicate it.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
As I have written many times now on this thread, the best contraception is abstinence.
I couldn't agree more. However, as thousands of priests from the Catholic church have demonstrated, even a mind hollier than thou is not strong enough to abstain.

It also neglects the basic fact that sex is fun and accidents happen.

But I put it back to you. Making it someone else's problem is rather pathetic. Like lobbing a hangrinade and turning your back. If you are going to make rules you should bare some of the burden. That surely is only fair no?
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I couldn't agree more. However, as thousands of priests from the Catholic church have demonstrated, even a mind hollier than thou is not strong enough to abstain.

It also neglects the basic fact that sex is fun and accidents happen.

But I put it back to you. Making it someone else's problem is rather pathetic. Like lobbing a hangrinade and turning your back. If you are going to make rules you should bare some of the burden. That surely is only fair no?
What? Someone else’s problem? I had no part to play in them having sex, why should I pay for their abortion?

I think this discussion shows a deep idea in our society that people should not be held accountable for their actions. This is why our society is going down the drain.
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AperfectBalance
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(Original post by OctoberRain7)
Actually, I think our lack of abortion rights is more due to us not having had a government for more than two years. It’s not even really a moral issue any more: abortion is legal in the rest of the UK and it should be legal here. A lot of people can travel to get abortions, so all that this law really does is restrict abortions to those who can’t afford to travel or teens who can’t get permission, AKA the most vulnerable people.
obviously it is still a moral issue, what other countries and areas chose to do has no sway on what is morally right.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
What? Someone else’s problem? I had no part to play in them having sex, why should I pay for their abortion?
I didn't say you should. But if you are to impose your morals on someone by preventing them from having the choice of an abortion, I feel you should take some of the burden of your moral view e.g. perhsps you should offer to support / bring up the unwanted children born as a result of your moral view. Espevially if the child was born through rape.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I didn't say you should. But if you are to impose your morals on someone by preventing them from having the choice of an abortion, I feel you should take some of the burden of your moral view e.g. perhsps you should offer to support / bring up the unwanted children born as a result of your moral view. Espevially if the child was born through rape.
Ok, that is fair and I agree with you. I think one big issue is the way some abandoned children are treated, which gives ammo to the pro-choicers who suggest that these children would be better dead.

Another issue for me is the ease at which abortion can be obtained. Yes, some people argue that having abortion is not an easy choice, but I think it is the easy way out. Many of these people esp young women like to pretend as if they have no other choice like the child dies or they have to die.

Finally, rape is a case often used by pro-choice people to support abortion. However, there are people out there, who were raped and still had the children. So, I often don't agree with that stance, but l understand the point.

I still believe that abortion should be the very last resort to particular cases such as when there is a significant and immediate/potential danger to the life of mother or child. If the child cannot be extracted safely and be kept alive, then it can be aborted.

For many other cases, those who want abortion should pay for it themselves.
Last edited by Wired_1800; 1 week ago
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Zamestaneh
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(Original post by AzureCeleste)
So what is morally right is based upon what most people what?
Really? Think back to the past when most people had and wanted slaves- that didn't make it right and now we look back and can't believe that was actually a thing
Then by what standard is what you believe morally correct or what people should follow? Unless you believe in a God who has given you objective moral truth, your opinion is epistemically and ontologically equal to everyone else's. The only reason a certain moral code is enforceable in the liberal/secular world is because of the concentration of power in the hands of those imposing that code, or because popularism results in a backlash from society so people conform.

Unless you have power (which you don't) or the population behind you (which in NI you don't), then there is no real way you can win unless you convince more people to adopt your view in which case it will become the popular view.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Ok, that is fair and I agree with you. I think one big issue is the way some abandoned children are treated, which gives ammo to the pro-choicers who suggest that these children would be better dead.

Another issue for me is the ease at which abortion can be obtained. Yes, some people argue that having abortion is not an easy choice, but I think it is the easy way out. Many of these people esp young women like to pretend as if they have no other choice like the child dies or they have to die.

Finally, rape is a case often used by pro-choice people to support abortion. However, there are people out there, who were raped and still had the children. So, I often don't agree with that stance, but l understand the point.

I still believe that abortion should be the very last resort to particular cases such as when there is a significant and immediate/potential danger to the life of mother or child. If the child cannot be extracted safely and be kept alive, then it can be aborted.

For many other cases, those who want abortion should pay for it themselves.
The fact is that if you base all your decisions on what some fictional character says then you are a fool.
If a person/ couple decide that they're not ready to have a child, whatever the reason, what gives you the right to judge that decision?
Pro life extremists are some of the nastiest mf's I've ever had the misfortune to see, they pray on the vulnerable, people that have gone through hell to make a choice that is the right choice for them, every last knobber that stands in front of an abortion clinic and tries to stop women from entering is a **** so far as I'm concerned.
Concentrate on your own life and stop trying to pass on your beliefs to everyone else you overbearing, self indulgent pricks.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ColinDent)
The fact is that if you base all your decisions on what some fictional character says then you are a fool.
If a person/ couple decide that they're not ready to have a child, whatever the reason, what gives you the right to judge that decision?
Pro life extremists are some of the nastiest mf's I've ever had the misfortune to see, they pray on the vulnerable, people that have gone through hell to make a choice that is the right choice for them, every last knobber that stands in front of an abortion clinic and tries to stop women from entering is a **** so far as I'm concerned.
Concentrate on your own life and stop trying to pass on your beliefs to everyone else you overbearing, self indulgent pricks.
I understand what you mean and I agree with you. I am in no way trying to stop women from taking charge and having agency over there bodies.

I personally don't agree with abortion. However, I think it is backward to try to control one’s decision over what they do with their bodies.

My focus is on personal responsibility and accountability. We need to go back to the time when people took responsibility over their lives and actions. Actions have consequences and when you have sex, drink, smoke, consume drugs, live a dangerous life etc. there are consequences that you must bear.

It is fine if a woman decides to kill her unborn child. My point is that I don't have to participate in her life, so why support that with my taxes. There are many people, who don't wish to be faced with the choice of killing their unborn children that they take personal responsibility which can involve abstinence for one.

The hypocrisy for pro-choice supporters is they scream about choice & accountability, but then don't practise what they preach. If you want the right to choose then you should pay for your choice. It surprises me that they (and people on here) want other people to pay for their choices. This is really the nanny state devolved of responsibility.

In summary here is my stance: I don't support abortion, but I agree that women should be given the right to decide what to do with their bodies. Whatever they choose, they should bear responsibility, even if it is to pay for a termination, if they want.
Last edited by Wired_1800; 1 week ago
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Many of these people esp young women like to pretend as if they have no other choice like the child dies or they have to die.
I think you are stereotyping. Have spoken to lots of women who have had an abortion, especially young women in order to form that view?

And therein lies another issue I have over the abortion debate. It is largely informed by ignorance, assumption and prejudice.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I think you are stereotyping. Have spoken to lots of women who have had an abortion, especially young women in order to form that view?

And therein lies another issue I have over the abortion debate. It is largely informed by ignorance, assumption and prejudice.
I am not one of those who has aimless chats about abortion, I have spoken with people who have had abortion and those who have not. I have also spoken with family members, who are doctors and have been in contact with young women who want to have abortions.

I have also been involved with Women’s Aid, where I have assisted women of abuse and violence. One topic that I have with some of them is about taking charge of their body and having agency. The recurring discussion focuses on abortion where our views diverge.

So I am not as ignorant, as you might think. My conclusion from my speaking with many many women is that abortion is not often the end of the road. Even some of the rape victims that I have engaged with have kept the pregnancies of their abusers and given birth.

One example: Emily [not her real name] was raped by a relative at 15. The first time she had sexual contact with anyone. Despite the pain from the trauma, she decided to keep the child and offered her for adoption. When I met Emily, I had the view that rape victims should be allowed to abort their babies. Now, I changed my view. Abortion is not the only way out. There are so many women who have experienced sexual violence and still did not have abortions.

I believe in freedom and the right to choose, so I accept that women should have the right to decide what they do with their body. However, they should also be required to pay for it. Those who don't support the act should not have to participate in it.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I believe in freedom and the right to choose, so I accept that women should have the right to decide what they do with their body. However, they should also be required to pay for it. Those who don't support the act should not have to participate in it.
A good response and fair dos. Trouble is, as soon as you make women pay you split the population by those who can and those who can't and once again it is those with the least who have the fewest choices in life. Is it really right that we make the right to choose means tested?

When we have an idiot of a transport secretary wasting millions on ill thought out frerry contracts is abortion really such a financial burden on our country?
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ColinDent
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(Original post by ByEeek)
A good response and fair dos. Trouble is, as soon as you make women pay you split the population by those who can and those who can't and once again it is those with the least who have the fewest choices in life. Is it really right that we make the right to choose means tested?

When we have an idiot of a transport secretary wasting millions on ill thought out frerry contracts is abortion really such a financial burden on our country?
Not to mention the return of backstreet abortions and all the dangers they bring.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
A good response and fair dos. Trouble is, as soon as you make women pay you split the population by those who can and those who can't and once again it is those with the least who have the fewest choices in life. Is it really right that we make the right to choose means tested?

When we have an idiot of a transport secretary wasting millions on ill thought out frerry contracts is abortion really such a financial burden on our country?
It is still down to personal responsibility. If you want freedom to choose what you want to do with your body, then you should be able to pay for it. It is hypocritical to want the public to give you agency over your body, but then want them to pay for your “mistakes”.

We should stop living in this ridiculous world. It is why we have a warped sense of reality. Freedom comes at a price, but we refuse to want to pay that price.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
It is still down to personal responsibility. If you want freedom to choose what you want to do with your body, then you should be able to pay for it. It is hypocritical to want the public to give you agency over your body, but then want them to pay for your “mistakes”.

We should stop living in this ridiculous world. It is why we have a warped sense of reality. Freedom comes at a price, but we refuse to want to pay that price.
So in that case, perhaps women should refrain from alliwing men to have sex with them until a contact is in place to share responsibilities for any outcome then?

I also find it vulgar than men are not a part of the abortion debate when they are 50% responsible.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
So in that case, perhaps women should refrain from alliwing men to have sex with them until a contact is in place to share responsibilities for any outcome then?

I also find it vulgar than men are not a part of the abortion debate when they are 50% responsible.
I am a man and I part of the debate. The responsibility lies with both of them.

Yes, women should really think hard before engaging in sex. It is their body, so they should be really prepared for the consequence. Not shout that they are being discriminated against for being women.

What I find absurd is how we engage in today’s world. Most young women would vehemently oppose any interference in their lives or bodies. However, they don't seem to mind others (esp men) to pay for their mistakes. Yet, we hear “men are trash” or “toxic masculinity”.

One thing that is interesting is that some men, I think, take advantage of some women and the gullibility. Some of us play along with their “feminism” and “women’s rights”, but then let them to really suffer the consequence. Most pro-choice supporters don't really care about women. They are not there, when the woman has to introduce chemicals or other materials to end a life in her body. If the woman develops some issues, those same men would find a younger and fitter woman to have children with, while the other woman would have invaded her body. All in the name of “women’s rights”.

I think women need to really wake up and catch the bait. The greatest thing a woman can do for herself is to take responsibility and be actually accountable for her life. That is what I think real feminism is.
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L i b
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I would personally have kept these issues at UK level. Whatever we decided ought to have been decided together.

But that's a pretty difficult line to hold given not only that Northern Ireland was initially exempted from the 1967 Act, but that we have devolved wide powers in the UK not only on abortion, but healthcare, justice and human rights. With that in mind, the only legitimate angle I can see for changing this in Northern Ireland would be through the ordinary cross-community legislative process within the Northern Ireland Assembly.

While there isn't a viable Executive at this point in Northern Ireland, it is notably not under direct-rule (yet). Even if it was, I would be cautious at using direct-rule as a means to change the law in relation to matters like this.
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flopsypopsy1
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You cant remove abortions, but you can remove safe ones.

With all the discussion on how women that want abortions, we are looking at a very black and white version of abortion. Actual people getting abortions range from the people that get it as a form of birth control, to women with dead/dying babies to young girls who have been raped/stupid (12-14), to older women who have a low survival rate. Every case is individual and its such a dangerous thing to monitor because where is the line between a valid reason and a non valid reason?
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Other_Owl
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It is legal but only get one for medical circumstances.
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