Bexit supporters would you support cancelling Brexit? Watch

Burton Bridge
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Dez)
You're not even making any sense now.
Well that's what happens when you debate with some people like yourself, you drag me down to you're level and beat me by experience!

(Original post by Dez)

How is anything I've put in this thread whataboutery?You're the one trying to derail the conversation by bringing up non-Brexit related arguments.
I'm not sure if you are being serious, can you not read you're own words? This thread is aimed at those who voted leave, I'm pretty sure that's not you, derailing the thread lol yea right!

(Original post by Dez)
Rubbish. The 2017 vote didn't prove anything, and the Brexit party have not won any elections at all yet. Neither of those things can be considered a mandate for Brexit, not by a long shot.
I literally don't think you know what you are talking about, the Brexit party are merely a few weeks old of course they have no MP’s.
All the remain parties were rejected in 2017 and the ones on Brexit manifestos gained huge ground in all areas bar NI and Scotland. I guess you don't want to see that, don't fit with your view point-as you were
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Dez
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#42
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#42
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Well that's what happens when you debate with some people like yourself, you drag me down to you're level and beat me by experience!
You really are tiresome to deal with.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I'm not sure if you are being serious, can you not read you're own words? This thread is aimed at those who voted leave, I'm pretty sure that's not you, derailing the thread lol yea right!
If you want an echo chamber, go back to readling the Daily Mail comments or something.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I literally don't think you know what you are talking about, the Brexit party are merely a few weeks old of course they have no MP’s.
You claimed that Brexit has a mandate because of the popularity of the Brexit party. That was your claim, not mine.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
All the remain parties were rejected in 2017 and the ones on Brexit manifestos gained huge ground in all areas bar NI and Scotland. I guess you don't want to see that, don't fit with your view point-as you were
The 2017 manifestos contained a great deal of things, you cannot logically conclude that just because a lot of people voted Conservative or Labour that they must automatically support Brexit since those two parties also supported it. That claim is completely vacuous, as should be obvious.
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Burton Bridge
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#43
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#43
(Original post by Bashtopher)
All options other than remain are stupid, but here we are. This allows us to leave the EU and retain the benefits of the single market. Best of a bad bunch of leave options. Closest to remain.
No they aren't, just because you don't agree with them does not make them stupid! The pitfalls of the EU are what we wish to leave, the UK would be foolish to leave the EU as a privileged member to take on the role of a ghost member! Nobody wants that. As a lever I'd rather remain it's ridiculous
(Original post by Dez)
You really are tiresome to deal with.



If you want an echo chamber, go back to readling the Daily Mail comments or something.



You claimed that Brexit has a mandate because of the popularity of the Brexit party. That was your claim, not mine.



The 2017 manifestos contained a great deal of things, you cannot logically conclude that just because a lot of people voted Conservative or Labour that they must automatically support Brexit since those two parties also supported it. That claim is completely vacuous, as should be obvious.
Aww back to insults, You are just simply talking rubbish arnt you? I've never brought the Daily fail in my life if you are going to insult people try to be factually accurate, or you make yourself look stupid!

The brexit party as you have pointed out are a one trick pony to get us out of the EU, so how would you discribe their rise in popularity other than support for brexit, its the only policy they have Ffs! Go on what's the reason they are polling more than both major parties, if its not Brexit?

Just keep ignoring all democracy and keep your EU tinted rose specs on, you have a world of disappointment coming your way!
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 5 days ago
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SMEGGGY
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#44
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I voted remain but it was a vote to leave so now am a leaver and respect the democratic decision.

We can't go pointing fingers at other countries like Russia, China etc when we are not respecting the vote results!
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Bashtopher
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No they aren't, just because you don't agree with them does not make them stupid! The pitfalls of the EU are what we wish to leave, the UK would be foolish to leave the EU as a privileged member to take on the role of a ghost member! Nobody wants that. As a lever I'd rather remain it's ridiculous

Aww back to insults, You are just simply talking rubbish arnt you? I've never brought the Daily fail in my life if you are going to insult people try to be factually accurate, or you make yourself look stupid!

The brexit party as you have pointed out are a one trick pony to get us out of the EU, so how would you discribe their rise in popularity other than support for brexit, its the only policy they have Ffs! Go on what's the reason they are polling more than both major parties, if its not Brexit?

Just keep ignoring all democracy and keep your EU tinted rose specs on, you have a world of disappointment coming your way!
No, they're not stupid because I disagree with them, they are stupid because all leave options are forecasted to make the country quite a bit poorer. We'd also be leaving an institution that has actually tried to tackle climate change issues, which is stupid because our country is a little slow on tackling this. Future generations will also lead us back to the EU, so it is stupid to leave now because we will lose all of our opt outs. We have quite a good bespoke deal and it is stupid and short sighted to leave.

I'd also like it if my son had the same rights and freedoms to move around the continent as I have had. That's certainly not stupid, and makes EFTA all the more appealing.
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Dez
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Aww back to insults, You are just simply talking rubbish arnt you? I've never brought the Daily fail in my life if you are going to insult people try to be factually accurate, or you make yourself look stupid!
I've more or less given up trying to respond rationally to you, anything I put on here you always end up completely misinterpreting or flying off the handle to support your magical unicorn Brexit vision.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The brexit party as you have pointed out are a one trick pony to get us out of the EU, so how would you discribe their rise in popularity other than support for brexit, its the only policy they have Ffs! Go on what's the reason they are polling more than both major parties, if its not Brexit?
Their popularity is irrelevant to a democratic mandate. In order to get a mandate you need to win an election, with a published manifesto.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Just keep ignoring all democracy and keep your EU tinted rose specs on, you have a world of disappointment coming your way!
Oh, I've long given up any hopes of a positive outcome. Either Brexit happens and screws us all over for the next few decades, or the ongoing government paralysis and complete breakdown in our democratic system does likewise. While there's possibly a chance that this train-wreck of a government could somehow be reasoned into avoiding chaos, I'm not gonna be betting my life savings on it.
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paul514
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#47
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(Original post by Bashtopher)
It seems that your knowledge of democracy is as mature as your responses to people's opinions.

Anyhow, I'm not suggesting a second referendum asking the same question. Not ignoring the first one (which was advisory, btw). Im talking about asking the people asking a new question (how move forward) as a means of solving the political impasse. If you think that asking the people a different question on the same issue in light of new circumstances is anti-democratic, then there's little hope for you to understand what democracy actually is.
There is no change of circumstance other that the leader of the government being completely incompetent.
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paul514
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#48
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(Original post by winterscoming)
It is anti democratic to hold a vote and then attempt to deliver something which contradicts the promises and claims which were originally made in favour of that vote.


Furthermore, the result of the a vote is democratically invalid when it is based upon significant false information, since a prerequisite for democracy is that of informed consent, but consent is not valid when it's granted on the basis of lies, deceit, deliberate misinformation and half-truths.
It would be anti democratic to do Mays deal as it isn’t what people voted for as you say.

When may is gone it’s no longer her deal however....
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ThePootisPower
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#49
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The only way a 2nd referendum would be undemocratic is if it gave the public no room for change or debate afterwards, but frankly even if we voted 60 - 40 in favour of remain in a Remain vs Leave (without a confirmed deal on the line, just ensuring what the public wants) I doubt that'd be the end of it.

There's literally nothing undemocratic about asking the public whether they still want to leave the EU. It's the same people voting with the same stakes on the line, just this time we'd know more about the options than we did the first time.

The deal with people calling a 2nd refendum) and the EU elections that decide who represents the UK in the EU undemocratic is that they are, to put it bluntly, full of sh**.

It's not at all undemocratic to have a public vote, they just screech as hard as they can that it is undemocratic so that their followers believe them and blindly march into the black-hole of nationalism.
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paul514
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(Original post by ThePootisPower)
The only way a 2nd referendum would be undemocratic is if it gave the public no room for change or debate afterwards, but frankly even if we voted 60 - 40 in favour of remain in a Remain vs Leave (without a confirmed deal on the line, just ensuring what the public wants) I doubt that'd be the end of it.

There's literally nothing undemocratic about asking the public whether they still want to leave the EU. It's the same people voting with the same stakes on the line, just this time we'd know more about the options than we did the first time.

The deal with people calling a 2nd refendum) and the EU elections that decide who represents the UK in the EU undemocratic is that they are, to put it bluntly, full of sh**.

It's not at all undemocratic to have a public vote, they just screech as hard as they can that it is undemocratic so that their followers believe them and blindly march into the black-hole of nationalism.
The only new thing we know is how crap May is at negotiating a deal.
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ThePootisPower
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#51
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(Original post by paul514)
The only new thing we know is how crap May is at negotiating a deal.
And also how the £350m for the NHS was BS.

And how "‘Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market’ – Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan", before May decided to tear us out of the single market.

And how Rees-Mogg said "The UK loses out because other members favour a highly regulated and protectionist economy" despite the fact that the UK has been in a minority on 57 legislative acts at the European Council since 1999 (when all EU decisions were made public) and how since then we've been in the majority on 2,474 acts.

I could go on but I'll just point you at the (admittedly partisan) Brexit Lies website and the much less partisan The Independent's list of 6 lies surrounding the EU referendum, including 2 Remain lies. Really, both sides lied (though I think it should be obvious the Leave campaign was the more lie-based one) and a 2nd referendum is necessary because of it.
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ColinDent
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#52
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#52
(Original post by Bashtopher)
Wait, you also have to include Norway style brexit. I'd only accept your proposal if the Norway option is there too.
Again May's deal covers that, can't see too much difference anyway!
I think that you're wrong about no deal being the most popular leave option, right now it's preferable to May's deal but I think most leavers would prefer a good FTA anyday.
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ColinDent
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#53
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(Original post by ThePootisPower)
And also how the £350m for the NHS was BS.

And how "‘Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market’ – Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan", before May decided to tear us out of the single market.

And how Rees-Mogg said "The UK loses out because other members favour a highly regulated and protectionist economy" despite the fact that the UK has been in a minority on 57 legislative acts at the European Council since 1999 (when all EU decisions were made public) and how since then we've been in the majority on 2,474 acts.

I could go on but I'll just point you at the (admittedly partisan) Brexit Lies website and the much less partisan The Independent's list of 6 lies surrounding the EU referendum, including 2 Remain lies. Really, both sides lied (though I think it should be obvious the Leave campaign was the more lie-based one) and a 2nd referendum is necessary because of it.
Ah man not this old chestnut again, I can point you to a video of lots of people, leave and remain, saying that a vote to leave means leaving the CU.
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ThePootisPower
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#54
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Ah man not this old chestnut again, I can point you to a video of lots of people, leave and remain, saying that a vote to leave means leaving the CU.
And I just pointed to you a MEP from the current government saying that it didn't.

Because the Leave campaign said whatever it wanted to, covering all the bases so that no matter what a prospective Leave voter wanted to hear, the Leave campaign would have somebody saying what they wanted to hear and securing their vote. This lead to the obvious issue of the government not having a bloody clue what to do after the referendum, which I think Cameron knew when he decided to resign.
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paul514
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(Original post by ThePootisPower)
And I just pointed to you a MEP from the current government saying that it didn't.

Because the Leave campaign said whatever it wanted to, covering all the bases so that no matter what a prospective Leave voter wanted to hear, the Leave campaign would have somebody saying what they wanted to hear and securing their vote. This lead to the obvious issue of the government not having a bloody clue what to do after the referendum, which I think Cameron knew when he decided to resign.
Oh noes not an MEP who was pretty much only known to politics geeks who watched the daily politics 😂
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paul514
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Again May's deal covers that, can't see too much difference anyway!
I think that you're wrong about no deal being the most popular leave option, right now it's preferable to May's deal but I think most leavers would prefer a good FTA anyday.
That’s exactly what people have always wanted the Canada deal with a few extras
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Bashtopher)
No, they're not stupid because I disagree with them, they are stupid because all leave options are forecasted to make the country quite a bit poorer. We'd also be leaving an institution that has actually tried to tackle climate change issues, which is stupid because our country is a little slow on tackling this. Future generations will also lead us back to the EU, so it is stupid to leave now because we will lose all of our opt outs. We have quite a good bespoke deal and it is stupid and short sighted to leave.

I'd also like it if my son had the same rights and freedoms to move around the continent as I have had. That's certainly not stupid, and makes EFTA all the more appealing.
Nobody is going to stop you're son from travelling!

I feel you are crediting people who have been wrong in the past as being right now, I also think you are acting very presumptuous that future generations will lead us back in the EU, I also think you are missing out actions on CC VS the rest of Europe.

I still say leaving Europe is not stupid but taking a zombie membership would be. No reason to add a Norway deal.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Dez)
I've more or less given up trying to respond rationally to you, anything I put on here you always end up completely misinterpreting or flying off the handle to support your magical unicorn Brexit vision.



Their popularity is irrelevant to a democratic mandate. In order to get a mandate you need to win an election, with a published manifesto.



Oh, I've long given up any hopes of a positive outcome. Either Brexit happens and screws us all over for the next few decades, or the ongoing government paralysis and complete breakdown in our democratic system does likewise. While there's possibly a chance that this train-wreck of a government could somehow be reasoned into avoiding chaos, I'm not gonna be betting my life savings on it.
Least you admit you are talking irrational, it's one way of discribeing your posts. Personally I think utter rubbish is far more accurate description!

Anyway off you go again with dribble 'my unicorn brexit' I would ask what you mean but it's literally pointless talking to you, because you of your own mouth talk irrational.

What ever floats you're boat I guess, you are not proving remainers are more intelligent than leavers that's for sure!
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 4 days ago
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_gcx
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While there concerns are valid in parts a lot of remainers seem to be raising objection purely because they didn't get the result they wanted. It highlights more than ever the flaws in representative democracy.
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Bashtopher
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#60
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Again May's deal covers that, can't see too much difference anyway!
I think that you're wrong about no deal being the most popular leave option, right now it's preferable to May's deal but I think most leavers would prefer a good FTA anyday.
The Norway/EFTA deal is very different to May's. The former keeps us in the single market and therefore allows the four freedoms, May's deal does not. And with regards to assessing the most popular leave option among brexiteers, the only polls we have to go by suggest that no deal is preferred to May's deal. This massive difference means it should be in any referendum.

Also, let's not forget that free trade agreements are hard to negotiate and takes many years. Moreover, we don't know what the terms would be so it is impossible to judge it's true popularity now. Canada's took 7 years to be negotiated and ratified. The economy would suffer enormously if that happened to us - indeed, a number of large business have already suffered , with some gone into administration - citing brexit uncertainty as a leading or contributing factor.

Maybe a free trade agreement would not take as long to negotiate, maybe the same amount of time, maybe longer. But considering the government can't manage a withdrawal agreement in over two years, it's quite safe to say that an intricate free trade agreement would take years to negotiate. We wouldn't have that uncertainty with EFTA...
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