Bexit supporters would you support cancelling Brexit? Watch

Bashtopher
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#61
Report 4 days ago
#61
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Nobody is going to stop you're son from travelling!

I feel you are crediting people who have been wrong in the past as being right now, I also think you are acting very presumptuous that future generations will lead us back in the EU, I also think you are missing out actions on CC VS the rest of Europe.

I still say leaving Europe is not stupid but taking a zombie membership would be. No reason to add a Norway deal.
Rights and freedoms do not refer to my son travelling. It's rights and freedoms to work and establish business with no barriers. Take part in the Erasmus programme, if he so chooses etc.

I think you are presuming my thoughts and research. I do predict that future generations will lead us back into Europe, based on data, and I can't wait for it.
0
reply
Bashtopher
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#62
Report 4 days ago
#62
(Original post by paul514)
That’s exactly what people have always wanted the Canada deal with a few extras
Says you, based on nothing.
0
reply
Bashtopher
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#63
Report 4 days ago
#63
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Nobody is going to stop you're son from travelling!

I feel you are crediting people who have been wrong in the past as being right now, I also think you are acting very presumptuous that future generations will lead us back in the EU, I also think you are missing out actions on CC VS the rest of Europe.

I still say leaving Europe is not stupid but taking a zombie membership would be. No reason to add a Norway deal.
And yeah, Norway deal is credible and realistic. Quite a lot of people wanted it. In fact, Farage originally sung it's praises and advocated it as a way forward prior to the referendum. So it should be taken seriously if people are going to have a democratic say on it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#64
Report 4 days ago
#64
(Original post by Bashtopher)
Rights and freedoms do not refer to my son travelling. It's rights and freedoms to work and establish business with no barriers. Take part in the Erasmus programme, if he so chooses etc.

I think you are presuming my thoughts and research. I do predict that future generations will lead us back into Europe, based on data, and I can't wait for it.
Well the European model has worked excellently for the wealthy, unfortunately not so well for the rest of society.

Time will tell, one thing for sure Brexit needs to be delivered, so we can start talking about proper issues and deside what type of country we want to live in.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#65
Report 4 days ago
#65
(Original post by Bashtopher)
And yeah, Norway deal is credible and realistic. Quite a lot of people wanted it. In fact, Farage originally sung it's praises and advocated it as a way forward prior to the referendum. So it should be taken seriously if people are going to have a democratic say on it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.
It's realistic, they would snap our hands off! It's absolutely ridiculous, what possible benifit does that have over our current membership?
0
reply
ColinDent
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#66
Report 4 days ago
#66
(Original post by Bashtopher)
The Norway/EFTA deal is very different to May's. The former keeps us in the single market and therefore allows the four freedoms, May's deal does not. And with regards to assessing the most popular leave option among brexiteers, the only polls we have to go by suggest that no deal is preferred to May's deal. This massive difference means it should be in any referendum.

Also, let's not forget that free trade agreements are hard to negotiate and takes many years. Moreover, we don't know what the terms would be so it is impossible to judge it's true popularity now. Canada's took 7 years to be negotiated and ratified. The economy would suffer enormously if that happened to us - indeed, a number of large business have already suffered , with some gone into administration - citing brexit uncertainty as a leading or contributing factor.

Maybe a free trade agreement would not take as long to negotiate, maybe the same amount of time, maybe longer. But considering the government can't manage a withdrawal agreement in over two years, it's quite safe to say that an intricate free trade agreement would take years to negotiate. We wouldn't have that uncertainty with EFTA...
Well considering we're at a starting point of equivalence the trade part of the deal is the easiest bit, the remaining EU countries really do not wish to lose our trade and the same can be said the other way round, it's why they've played hardball with the withdrawal agreement, they know it's their last chance to screw something extra out of us, unfortunately our pitiful PM has allowed this to happen way too easily.
0
reply
ColinDent
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#67
Report 4 days ago
#67
(Original post by ThePootisPower)
And I just pointed to you a MEP from the current government saying that it didn't.

Because the Leave campaign said whatever it wanted to, covering all the bases so that no matter what a prospective Leave voter wanted to hear, the Leave campaign would have somebody saying what they wanted to hear and securing their vote. This lead to the obvious issue of the government not having a bloody clue what to do after the referendum, which I think Cameron knew when he decided to resign.
So you're suggesting that people, on the whole, ignored the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove and Leadsom to listen to Daniel Hannan? What a strange world you must occupy.
0
reply
ThePootisPower
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#68
Report 4 days ago
#68
(Original post by ColinDent)
So you're suggesting that people, on the whole, ignored the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove and Leadsom to listen to Daniel Hannan? What a strange world you must occupy.
No, I’m saying that the Leave campaign had so many different narratives on what would happen after the Referendum, people voted for wildly differing reasons because of how many narratives were pushed. People said we weren’t leaving the single market while others said we would.

Ironically the only thing I don’t think a single campaign said would be ok was a No Deal brexit, with even Vote Leave saying they’d have a deal drawn up before triggering A50.
Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
0
reply
Bashtopher
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#69
Report 4 days ago
#69
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Well the European model has worked excellently for the wealthy, unfortunately not so well for the rest of society.

Time will tell, one thing for sure Brexit needs to be delivered, so we can start talking about proper issues and deside what type of country we want to live in.
Odd to blame the EU for wealth disparity when a) it's very well known for its positive impact on workers' rights, and b) it does not preclude a national government from implementing policies to resolve wealth disparity. One example of many is austerity, a national policy that has led to higher rates of absolute poverty and an increase in food banks. This was a conservative/coalition policy, nothing to do with the EU. By the same token, the EU isn't stopping us from ending austerity.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
It's realistic, they would snap our hands off! It's absolutely ridiculous, what possible benifit does that have over our current membership?
Our current membership is the best option! Of course it's not better than that. The situation we're in means we need to find the least damaging way out, one that retains the benefits of our membership. EFTA is that option. The only "ridiculous" means of leaving is no deal, since it is forecasted to lose us 9% of GDP.

(Original post by ColinDent)
Well considering we're at a starting point of equivalence the trade part of the deal is the easiest bit, the remaining EU countries really do not wish to lose our trade and the same can be said the other way round, it's why they've played hardball with the withdrawal agreement, they know it's their last chance to screw something extra out of us, unfortunately our pitiful PM has allowed this to happen way too easily.
Other countries are not going to lose our trade, because we need them too. The fact is, amongst this whole negotiation, European countries have slowed buying from us because of uncertainty. Just look at at what British Steel said the other day! Again, that's one example among many where there's a negative impact to Britain because of Brexit, and little to no impact on the EU. I don't know why anyone would think we have a stronger hand to play than Europe in trade negotiations - it's complete fantasy.

A trade deal will take years. All evidence shows us this. And, anyways, the withdrawal deal was meant to be the "easiest" part!
0
reply
ColinDent
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#70
Report 4 days ago
#70
(Original post by ThePootisPower)
No, I’m saying that the Leave campaign had so many different narratives on what would happen after the Referendum, people voted for wildly differing reasons because of how many narratives were pushed. People said we weren’t leaving the single market while others said we would.

Ironically the only thing I don’t think a single campaign said would be ok was a No Deal brexit, with even Vote Leave saying they’d have a deal drawn up before triggering A50.
Pretty much everyone except for Daniel Hannan said it would mean leaving the CU, there only seem to be certain remainers that are confused by this as anyone that I know that voted to leave did so in the full knowledge that it meant leaving all of the EU's 4 freedoms.
0
reply
Bashtopher
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#71
Report 4 days ago
#71
(Original post by ColinDent)
Pretty much everyone except for Daniel Hannan said it would mean leaving the CU, there only seem to be certain remainers that are confused by this as anyone that I know that voted to leave did so in the full knowledge that it meant leaving all of the EU's 4 freedoms.
Firstly, the customs unions has nothing to do with the four freedoms - that's the single market. Secondly, people hardly mentioned the customs union during the referendum debate. Most people talked about the single market. Thirdly, he's right about inconsistent narratives. Both leave and remain said so many things that no one could say that either side definitely voted for a certain version of either option. While most leavers did rule out being part of the single market, the founder of Leave.EU promoted the Norway option - which would keep us in the single market! Although it can be said that this is an exception rather than a rule, it certainly blurs the lines of people's voting intentions, and it would be a little foolish to assume when a) the result of the referendum was so close and b) there is a mechanism to resolve this issue.

That's why we should sort this out with a second referendum, laying out the five most credible options : no deal, May's deal, customs union, EFTA and Remain.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#72
Report 4 days ago
#72
(Original post by Bashtopher)
Odd to blame the EU for wealth disparity when a) it's very well known for its positive impact on workers' rights, and b) it does not preclude a national government from implementing policies to resolve wealth disparity. One example of many is austerity, a national policy that has led to higher rates of absolute poverty and an increase in food banks. This was a conservative/coalition policy, nothing to do with the EU. By the same token, the EU isn't stopping us from ending austerity.


Our current membership is the best option! Of course it's not better than that. The situation we're in means we need to find the least damaging way out, one that retains the benefits of our membership. EFTA is that option. The only "ridiculous" means of leaving is no deal, since it is forecasted to lose us 9% of GDP.


Other countries are not going to lose our trade, because we need them too. The fact is, amongst this whole negotiation, European countries have slowed buying from us because of uncertainty. Just look at at what British Steel said the other day! Again, that's one example among many where there's a negative impact to Britain because of Brexit, and little to no impact on the EU. I don't know why anyone would think we have a stronger hand to play than Europe in trade negotiations - it's complete fantasy.

A trade deal will take years. All evidence shows us this. And, anyways, the withdrawal deal was meant to be the "easiest" part!
Firstly the withdrawal agreement is done so that is the easy part, not sure what you think is happening?

It's appears to me that you continue to redit the experts you agree with, some that have been exceptionally accurate in being incorrect in the past as being 100% unequivocal truth and dismiss any that make the leave case. The truth is nobody can predict what would happen in a No Deal scenario because nobody actually knows basic information such as what tariff's would be set, we simply don't know what rules would be of the game so to speak. Most predictions are based on us keeping the common external tariff which would simply be insane, it's these limitations that Brexit will free us from, why would we keep them?

The only place here we can reach agreement is brexit needs sorting because currently the uncertainty is damaging business and the extension of article 50 is only damaging us further.

As far as blaming the EU for austerity that's not actually what I said that's a strawman argument that you have set up. I said the European model has worked very well for the wealthy not so well for the rest of society. Before we start blaming Conservative coalitions, conveniently forgetting to name who they was in a partnership with. Let's not forget the European model as far as the UK is concerned is a Conservative idea, since the 70s polices have worked very well for the wealthy, cut equality and damaged the country. The EEC/EU has not saved any jobs or improved anything for the poorest, the current path (the one you wish to glue us too) works well for the wealthy and not for the rest, I'm correct that's fact.
0
reply
ColinDent
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#73
Report 4 days ago
#73
(Original post by Bashtopher)
Firstly, the customs unions has nothing to do with the four freedoms - that's the single market. Secondly, people hardly mentioned the customs union during the referendum debate. Most people talked about the single market. Thirdly, he's right about inconsistent narratives. Both leave and remain said so many things that no one could say that either side definitely voted for a certain version of either option. While most leavers did rule out being part of the single market, the founder of Leave.EU promoted the Norway option - which would keep us in the single market! Although it can be said that this is an exception rather than a rule, it certainly blurs the lines of people's voting intentions, and it would be a little foolish to assume when a) the result of the referendum was so close and b) there is a mechanism to resolve this issue.

That's why we should sort this out with a second referendum, laying out the five most credible options : no deal, May's deal, customs union, EFTA and Remain.
Firstly did I actually say the CU was one of the 4 freedoms?
Secondly, gonna hold my hands up, I misremembered, there was loads of talk about us leaving the single market though and everything else comes as part of the package.

https://youtu.be/9fDn0MvcHQ4

There was also considerable talk of us being able to set our own trade policy which would strongly infer us being outside of the customs union, but I guess it's down to how individuals interpreted it, I just don't personally know anyone that voted to leave that think we should stay in the CU.
0
reply
Suud500
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#74
Report 4 days ago
#74
(Original post by jonathanemptage)
Obviously I'm going to get flamed for this but I have reasons First of all I am a remain voter and I accept that my side lost. (but I'd still vote remain in a second referendum). But the government have done such a bad job and messed up som much I think we should cancel brexit If we must leave. Here's why:

The referendum was run 3 years ago with all these promises of more money for the NHS control over our own laws and boarders and all that. As it turns out we didn't have plan so Now we get to the point where my is flogging her dead deal that the house won't pass she needs the DUP to get the plan through the house and they won't back it because it detrimental to them.

If we cancel Brexit we can actually make a plan that can make it through the house (because May's current plan won't). Then put it to the EU and actually have a good deal the of course we all want.
Zero chance would I support cancelling Brexit. Why should I have in the other people trying to stall the process. It should make me even more determined not To cave to leftists trying to subvert the will of the people.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#75
Report 4 days ago
#75
(Original post by Suud500)
Zero chance would I support cancelling Brexit. Why should I have in the other people trying to stall the process. It should make me even more determined not To cave to leftists trying to subvert the will of the people.
It's not a left issue, I'm as left wing as they come but I'm a lever
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#76
Report 4 days ago
#76
(Original post by ColinDent)
Firstly did I actually say the CU was one of the 4 freedoms?
Secondly, gonna hold my hands up, I misremembered, there was loads of talk about us leaving the single market though and everything else comes as part of the package.

https://youtu.be/9fDn0MvcHQ4

There was also considerable talk of us being able to set our own trade policy which would strongly infer us being outside of the customs union, but I guess it's down to how individuals interpreted it, I just don't personally know anyone that voted to leave that think we should stay in the CU.
Great video, the remainers really are crying now, so much their eyes seem to of dried up, the tears are seeping from their back passage now, literally just crying diarrhoea and making literally no sense
0
reply
Bashtopher
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#77
Report 3 days ago
#77
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Firstly the withdrawal agreement is done so that is the easy part, not sure what you think is happening?

It's appears to me that you continue to redit the experts you agree with, some that have been exceptionally accurate in being incorrect in the past as being 100% unequivocal truth and dismiss any that make the leave case. The truth is nobody can predict what would happen in a No Deal scenario because nobody actually knows basic information such as what tariff's would be set, we simply don't know what rules would be of the game so to speak. Most predictions are based on us keeping the common external tariff which would simply be insane, it's these limitations that Brexit will free us from, why would we keep them?

The only place here we can reach agreement is brexit needs sorting because currently the uncertainty is damaging business and the extension of article 50 is only damaging us further.

As far as blaming the EU for austerity that's not actually what I said that's a strawman argument that you have set up. I said the European model has worked very well for the wealthy not so well for the rest of society. Before we start blaming Conservative coalitions, conveniently forgetting to name who they was in a partnership with. Let's not forget the European model as far as the UK is concerned is a Conservative idea, since the 70s polices have worked very well for the wealthy, cut equality and damaged the country. The EEC/EU has not saved any jobs or improved anything for the poorest, the current path (the one you wish to glue us too) works well for the wealthy and not for the rest, I'm correct that's fact.
The withdrawal agreement isn't done! It is going back to parliament for a fourth meaningful vote next month. Whilst the government and the EU have come to an agreement, this is largely seen as unacceptable to brexiteers and remainers alike. I don't know what you think is happening to be honest.

The argument that we should not listen to experts because they have sometimes been wrong in the past is an insane one. Should I not listen to experts on climate change too? When am I allowed to ever listen to experts? I'll tell my children not to listen to their teachers too, because my gut feeling knows more about maths than them! I remember Michael Gove saying that we should ignore experts during the referendum campaign. It's funny that as soon as an expert agrees with something he says that he is happy to quote them. Such an immature and ill thought out way to approach data and forecasting, and typical of why the nation chose to leave.

In more or less the same breath, you say that we can agree that that uncertainty surrounding brexit is damaging business, whilst also saying that no one knows what no deal brings (which is why you claim forecasts don't work) in favour of a no deal! You can't have it both ways, it is counterintuitive. And if you think any certainty lies in wto tariffs, then we are in a worse position. Not just because experts think it, but because it is a fall back, not a good trade deal.

One thing we should be able to agree on, is that EFTA provides certainty, can be implemented quickly and is more economically beneficialthan both wto or nothing. And yes, while you can agree with me on that, I can agree that our current membership is better than EFTA!

I base my arguments on evidence. I find it frustrating that many people don't. I never said you blamed the EU for austerity. I used the example (i.e. used as evidence) that the national government of the day is responsible for wealth redistribution, not the EU. You can vaguely say "oh well the EU has worked well for the rich" because the wealth divide has constantly increased in this country (which I can only assume is your position), but to blame the EU while completely ignoring the role of the state in wealth disparity is absurd. The EU isn't so intrusive as to sort income inequality in individual countries. The national government of the day is responsible for reducing income inequality! I'm beginning to think you fundamentally misunderstand the role of the EU.

A straw man argument is what you seem to be aiming for, in all truth. You have misrepresented a few things I've said (the austerity thing, wanting my son to "travel", irrelevantly mentioning that I did not say "lib dems"as the coalition partner). I'm very aware that going into the EU was a Tory policy. It was actually a good Tory policy that has benefited the country as a whole. Shock horror, the Tories sometimes make good policy decisions!

The fact that you've said "I'm correct that's a fact", when refusing to accept actual facts and provide any evidence, speaks volumes about where you're coming from. The fact that you don't want people to have a say on a term of Brexit you don't like (despite chastising me for saying that I think Brexit is stupid (based on evidence)) also speaks volumes.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Great video, the remainers really are crying now, so much their eyes seem to of dried up, the tears are seeping from their back passage now, literally just crying diarrhoea and making literally no sense
This also speaks volumes about the maturity of your argument.

(Original post by ColinDent)
Firstly did I actually say the CU was one of the 4 freedoms?
Secondly, gonna hold my hands up, I misremembered, there was loads of talk about us leaving the single market though and everything else comes as part of the package.

https://youtu.be/9fDn0MvcHQ4

There was also considerable talk of us being able to set our own trade policy which would strongly infer us being outside of the customs union, but I guess it's down to how individuals interpreted it, I just don't personally know anyone that voted to leave that think we should stay in the CU.
Firstly, I think it's impossible to know why many people voted leave, especially in relation to the customs union. Although yeah, I think making our own trade deals certainly implies this, as you said. I do think that, because brexit was mainly decided on immigration (polls suggest this), then leaving the single market was big for most brexiteers. I still think staying in the single market while leaving the EU should be considered though, since it still honours the result of the referendum (since we'd still leave the EU). Secondly, apologies if you did not mean to equate the four freedoms with the customs union, but the way this sentence is structured says that you did, since you do not separate the two clauses:
(Original post by ColinDent)
Pretty much everyone except for Daniel Hannan said it would mean leaving the CU, there only seem to be certain remainers that are confused by this as anyone that I know that voted to leave did so in the full knowledge that it meant leaving all of the EU's 4 freedoms.
But I can see you were responding to someone who mentions both the CU and single market, so I'm sure you didn't mean to equate the two.
0
reply
ColinDent
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#78
Report 3 days ago
#78
(Original post by Bashtopher)
The withdrawal agreement isn't done! It is going back to parliament for a fourth meaningful vote next month. Whilst the government and the EU have come to an agreement, this is largely seen as unacceptable to brexiteers and remainers alike. I don't know what you think is happening to be honest.

The argument that we should not listen to experts because they have sometimes been wrong in the past is an insane one. Should I not listen to experts on climate change too? When am I allowed to ever listen to experts? I'll tell my children not to listen to their teachers too, because my gut feeling knows more about maths than them! I remember Michael Gove saying that we should ignore experts during the referendum campaign. It's funny that as soon as an expert agrees with something he says that he is happy to quote them. Such an immature and ill thought out way to approach data and forecasting, and typical of why the nation chose to leave.

In more or less the same breath, you say that we can agree that that uncertainty surrounding brexit is damaging business, whilst also saying that no one knows what no deal brings (which is why you claim forecasts don't work) in favour of a no deal! You can't have it both ways, it is counterintuitive. And if you think any certainty lies in wto tariffs, then we are in a worse position. Not just because experts think it, but because it is a fall back, not a good trade deal.

One thing we should be able to agree on, is that EFTA provides certainty, can be implemented quickly and is more economically beneficialthan both wto or nothing. And yes, while you can agree with me on that, I can agree that our current membership is better than EFTA!

I base my arguments on evidence. I find it frustrating that many people don't. I never said you blamed the EU for austerity. I used the example (i.e. used as evidence) that the national government of the day is responsible for wealth redistribution, not the EU. You can vaguely say "oh well the EU has worked well for the rich" because the wealth divide has constantly increased in this country (which I can only assume is your position), but to blame the EU while completely ignoring the role of the state in wealth disparity is absurd. The EU isn't so intrusive as to sort income inequality in individual countries. The national government of the day is responsible for reducing income inequality! I'm beginning to think you fundamentally misunderstand the role of the EU.

A straw man argument is what you seem to be aiming for, in all truth. You have misrepresented a few things I've said (the austerity thing, wanting my son to "travel", irrelevantly mentioning that I did not say "lib dems"as the coalition partner). I'm very aware that going into the EU was a Tory policy. It was actually a good Tory policy that has benefited the country as a whole. Shock horror, the Tories sometimes make good policy decisions!

The fact that you've said "I'm correct that's a fact", when refusing to accept actual facts and provide any evidence, speaks volumes about where you're coming from. The fact that you don't want people to have a say on a term of Brexit you don't like (despite chastising me for saying that I think Brexit is stupid (based on evidence)) also speaks volumes.


This also speaks volumes about the maturity of your argument.



Firstly, I think it's impossible to know why many people voted leave, especially in relation to the customs union. Although yeah, I think making our own trade deals certainly implies this, as you said. I do think that, because brexit was mainly decided on immigration (polls suggest this), then leaving the single market was big for most brexiteers. I still think staying in the single market while leaving the EU should be considered though, since it still honours the result of the referendum (since we'd still leave the EU). Secondly, apologies if you did not mean to equate the four freedoms with the customs union, but the way this sentence is structured says that you did, since you do not separate the two clauses:


But I can see you were responding to someone who mentions both the CU and single market, so I'm sure you didn't mean to equate the two.
I couldn't disagree with you more on the Single Market because staying in that means staying in the EU.
And the reading my original post I admit it could have been worded better, but thank you for the acknowledgement.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How did your AQA A-level Psychology Paper 1 go?

Loved the paper - Feeling positive (4)
40%
The paper was reasonable (1)
10%
Not feeling great about that exam... (1)
10%
It was TERRIBLE (4)
40%

Watched Threads

View All