Is it possible for a party to become 'unelectable' if... Watch

Other_Owl
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...they privatised the NHS, did away with state education or get rid of the state pension?
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DJKL
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Yes.
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paul514
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(Original post by Other_Owl)
...they privatised the NHS, did away with state education or get rid of the state pension?
Obviously
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fallen_acorns
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given that all three would be widely unpopular, yes.

its quite a stupid question to be honest.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by paul514)
Obviously
Well Brexit aside, this is pretty much what the Tories have done. Huge swathes of the NHS are not contracted out to the lowest bidder. Education has been fragmented and in secondary is increasingly run by profit making private ventures. Pensions are only safe whilst older folks elect governments.
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paul514
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Well Brexit aside, this is pretty much what the Tories have done. Huge swathes of the NHS are not contracted out to the lowest bidder. Education has been fragmented and in secondary is increasingly run by profit making private ventures. Pensions are only safe whilst older folks elect governments.
Last table I saw it was 6% under the conservatives and it was 5% under labour for the NHS so if it’s gone further it can’t be that much past that and most of it was private operations the NHS pays for to keep times down.

As for education we are talking about non council run schools?

And pensions have been safe under labour and conservative.

The OP was talking about all of it and I answered, I’m not the mouthpiece for the conservatives but I don’t see what you have seen at all.
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DJKL
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Well Brexit aside, this is pretty much what the Tories have done. Huge swathes of the NHS are not contracted out to the lowest bidder. Education has been fragmented and in secondary is increasingly run by profit making private ventures. Pensions are only safe whilst older folks elect governments.
State pensions as a concept are safe from unilateral seizure, end of story. Whilst the aged vote might not itself be all powerful (though it is pretty powerful) large swathes of older people have children and grandchildren who are pretty unlikely to agree to the state swiping the pensions of their parents , grandparents etc.

The worst that might occur is a form of reduction of the state pension via means testing, frankly imho a very stupid action in a political sense- breaking a perceived social contract and being considered by many as theft, especially if executed by MPs with their own gold plated pension provision- but I suppose some of our politicians really are stupid enough to try.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by DJKL)
State pensions as a concept are safe from unilateral seizure, end of story. Whilst the aged vote might not itself be all powerful (though it is pretty powerful) large swathes of older people have children and grandchildren who are pretty unlikely to agree to the state swiping the pensions of their parents , grandparents etc.

The worst that might occur is a form of reduction of the state pension via means testing, frankly imho a very stupid action in a political sense- breaking a perceived social contract and being considered by many as theft, especially if executed by MPs with their own gold plated pension provision- but I suppose some of our politicians really are stupid enough to try.
I agree with all you have said, but just as other regressive policies which have seen services fragmented and split up, so too with prnsions. We have already seen the pension age rise for women by 7 years in the last few years. Free TV licences are under threat as is the tripple lock and the winter fuel allowance is on the brink. The point is that a drip drip of retrograde steps will see its value fall over time.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I agree with all you have said, but just as other regressive policies which have seen services fragmented and split up, so too with prnsions. We have already seen the pension age rise for women by 7 years in the last few years. Free TV licences are under threat as is the tripple lock and the winter fuel allowance is on the brink. The point is that a drip drip of retrograde steps will see its value fall over time.
And what is Labour's answer to the pension problem? Make those that have worked all their lives and paid their dues pay even more, great plan.
The answer lies in getting people who can work back into work and less reliant on the state, it's the only slightly right wing policy I agree with.
State benefit is meant to be a fall back not a lifestyle.
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Royal Oak
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You never know. As long as someone spouts "Make Britain Great Again" they may be able to get away with it amongst certain types in society.
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DJKL
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I agree with all you have said, but just as other regressive policies which have seen services fragmented and split up, so too with prnsions. We have already seen the pension age rise for women by 7 years in the last few years. Free TV licences are under threat as is the tripple lock and the winter fuel allowance is on the brink. The point is that a drip drip of retrograde steps will see its value fall over time.
It is not quite seven years yet, we are transitioning, so say a woman born in January 1960 will currently receive their state pension in 2026, age exactly 66, and someone born say April 1960 will receive theirs at 66 years one month, the scale in effect is moving towards 67. I believe there are ongoing discussions extending this further which I do expect will likely, at some time,happen. (I know these particular ones as they impact myself and my wife and I checked up on them the other day)

As someone impacted by this, and who will be caught by this, I do not particularly like it but I do accept , given increasing life expectancy, there is some form of inevitability about it if the younger generation are not to be crippled by the extra taxes that would be needed (especially given they have student loan repayments as well) to maintain the status quo.

I personally see it as the duty of government to be far more encouraging to private pension provision, it is in their own interest long term not to have to pay benefits to those who have retired nor should the retired require to claim such benefits, frankly even with the GMP top up to the state pension it is wholly inadequate for anyone to live on with much dignity, the trouble is our politicians have seriously damaged such encouragement, e.g. Brown's change to dividend tax credit repayment by pension schemes, capping provisions re contributions to a lesser extent.

For instance if I introduced legislation to give employers' double tax relief on employer pension contributions, so a company got 38% tax relief not 19%, that could really assist long term, but does come at a cost re current corporation tax receipts, and the AE legislation has a number of flaws within it , especially for those say holding 2-3 jobs, none of which reach threshold for employer contributions.

I think some form of means testing is likely inevitable and sadly I think all parties will ,as you say ,reduce the already poor state pension by a thousand small cuts, but the way to slightly mitigate this is to take control for one's pension outwith the state and have distinct other provision, sadly something a large swathe of those who do not have government type, civil service etc type, schemes currently lack.

I work in a small office of five, the two older ones (inc myself) have been saving into pension schemes since our 20s, the three younger ones ,now in their forties, only have miniscule AE pots since AE started, there is a massive tranche of the workforce (and even these days the self employed) who have made virtually no private provision- when I started as an accountant in the 1980s virtually all self employed clients had private pensions, in recent years most do not despite their accountants suggesting they maybe should consider so doing, a large part of this was the removal of accountants' ability to offer financial services advice without further qualifications and extra costs.

UK pensions are a real ticking time bomb.
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londonmyst
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Abolishing the state pension alone would be enough to render a uk political party unelectable for the next 50-100 years.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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did away with state education?

this has got Mogg written all over it

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ColinDent
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
did away with state education?

this has got Mogg written all over it

Some one else that is written off as some kind of right wing toff, however he handles himself perfectly and actually comes across as a decent person. Politics should be more about the individual than the party.
But like with Farage feel free to vilify a perfectly reasonable person.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Some one else that is written off as some kind of right wing toff, however he handles himself perfectly and actually comes across as a decent person. Politics should be more about the individual than the party.
But like with Farage feel free to vilify a perfectly reasonable person.
no i think its quite admirable, despite different political opinions, carries himself incredibly well
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ColinDent
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
no i think its quite admirable, despite different political opinions, carries himself incredibly well
Fair play, it's good to see that even though you disagree with someone's ideals you can at least see the principal involved.
FWIW I do understand the issues that remain minded people have with leaving, I just don't see it the same way like many others, therein lies the problem, it all comes down to perception.
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DJKL
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Some one else that is written off as some kind of right wing toff, however he handles himself perfectly and actually comes across as a decent person. Politics should be more about the individual than the party.
But like with Farage feel free to vilify a perfectly reasonable person.
I would prefer more about the policies rather than either the party or the individual; policies first, competence second and character third (unless it is so unsavoury that individual not fit for office)
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Joinedup
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(Original post by DJKL)
Brown's change to dividend tax credit repayment by pension schemes,

--snip--
Yeah that was a clever bit of stealth taxing by Gordon... and iirc one the Tories said they'd reverse as soon as they got the chance... but never did.
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DJKL
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(Original post by Joinedup)
Yeah that was a clever bit of stealth taxing by Gordon... and iirc one the Tories said they'd reverse as soon as they got the chance... but never did.
No, instead they brought in more and more taxes on dividends for individuals to counter disguised employment via companies, however like most politicians with tax they were totally cack handed . They could have solved the NI issues with private company contractors oh so simply- by creating a brand new, formed for purpose, legal beast with its own distinct tax regime, the Germans have such a beast for professional contractors, but we here instead try to twist and weave our extant statute book and raft of taxes etc to try to get it to cure the ill- god they are all so inept.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by ColinDent)
And what is Labour's answer to the pension problem? Make those that have worked all their lives and paid their dues pay even more, great plan.
The answer lies in getting people who can work back into work and less reliant on the state, it's the only slightly right wing policy I agree with.
State benefit is meant to be a fall back not a lifestyle.
Agreed. And with unemployment at its lowest rate in 40 years, surely your ideal is coming true.

That said, I am tired of your tabloid stereotype that huge swaiths of the country are living the life of riley courtesy of the state. Do you know what the state actually offers? How you can live a rich life on it is beyond me. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

The truth is that those in poverty today are more likely to be working. And no doubt they are working a dam sight harder than you or I.
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