Prince of Hell
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Did you vote Brexit? Do you think they should let the younger generation vote? What are your views on Brexit?
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Archetypally
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I couldn't vote at the time, but I would have voted remain. Despite not being allowed to vote, and obviously not getting the outcome I would have hoped for, I think allowing under 18s to vote is a dangerous precedent to set. I personally don't see altering the voting age in any respect (allowing younger/banning older) to be a good idea.

I am old enough to vote now, however, and if there was a second referendum, I'd vote to leave. It's important I think that our votes will continue to mean something for the foreseeable future without the risk of overturning them.
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Burridge
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(Original post by Archetypally)
I am old enough to vote now, however, and if there was a second referendum, I'd vote to leave. It's important I think that our votes will continue to mean something for the foreseeable future without the risk of overturning them.
You'd vote leave out of principle despite the misinformation from their side during the first campaign (NHS £350m, Turkey joining EU), electoral fraud claims (which have led to a £60k fine from the EC), and opinion poll after opinion poll which gives Remain a consistent lead over Leave?
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Sam marsden666
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there were just as many lies on both sides of the argument mate do not pretend this is a one sided issue. Plus all the points that you presented are not actually relevant to the question of "is brexit the right thing for the UK ".
(Original post by Burridge)
You'd vote leave out of principle despite the misinformation from their side during the first campaign (NHS £350m, Turkey joining EU), electoral fraud claims (which have led to a £60k fine from the EC), and opinion poll after opinion poll which gives Remain a consistent lead over Leave?
Last edited by Sam marsden666; 1 year ago
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Burridge
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(Original post by Prince of Hell)
Did you vote Brexit? Do you think they should let the younger generation vote? What are your views on Brexit?
I voted to Remain. I despise Brexit. I intensely dislike the politics that it represents (insular, intolerant, backwards looking) and believe that membership of the EU has benefited the UK profoundly over the past 50 years.

I also support votes at 16. This has nothing to with strategy for winning elections; I support votes at 16 because I feel as though 16 year olds are capable of rational thought and should be able to make an informed decision about something which will profoundly shape their lives.
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MoTheCucumber
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What are the reasons you did/would have voted to leave?
(Original post by Sam marsden666)
there were just as many lies on both sides of the argument mate do not pretend this is a one sided issue. Plus all the points that you presented are not actually relevant to the question of "is brexit the right thing for the UK ".
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Andrew97
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This again.
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Burridge
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(Original post by Sam marsden666)
there were just as many lies on both sides of the argument mate do not pretend this is a one sided issue.
If you think that the misinformation from Remain and Leave was balanced then I'd say that you didn't follow the campaigns closely enough. The FullFact website couldn't even keep up at one point with the amount of gaffes and half-truths that Leave were spreading.

Be it misinformation about our membership costs, that we didn't have to leave the Single Market, Turkey joining the EU imminently, the classic £350m for the NHS, the list is endless.

The British media has been publishing demonstrably false headlines about the EU for decades. This has fed into the false narrative being spread by Leavers. The EU has published a full list of rebuttals:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...ths-a-z-index/

(Original post by Sam marsden666)
Plus all the points that you presented are not actually relevant to the question of "is brexit the right thing for the UK ".
I was responding to a specific post in the thread, not the OP. I've posted my views on Brexit below. Not to mention your post isn't relevant to the question "is Brexit right for the UK" either :dontknow:
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username2923348
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(Original post by Prince of Hell)
Did you vote Brexit? Do you think they should let the younger generation vote? What are your views on Brexit?
I voted to leave 3 years ago, I'd still vote to leave now.

I don't think letting younger than 18 y/o vote is in anyone's best interest, it's been this what for years and it's democratic and fair, now if you changed it to "those over 18 and those over 16 paying taxes" I'd be more inclined to agree with that.

I still stand by leaving is the best thing for the UK, in terms of sovereignty and the long term economy.
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katf
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I voted remain. I'm a dual British-Irish citizen, and no one has as yet proposed a version of Brexit that doesn't result in ANY hardening of the border. I say any, because I mean it. There can be no hardening of the border. Not if we want peace in NI.

I back a second vote and remaining for various reasons.
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MoTheCucumber
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All that and you haven't even delved into the controversy surrounding the Brexit Party: Nigel Farage's refusal to publish a manifesto, his lack of transparency regarding his funding, the payment of £400,000+ from Arron Banks, etc...

The real impetus behind Brexit is not immigration, membership fees, overstretched NHS and education system; it's the desire of Nigel and his financial backers to transform Britain into a tax haven for the incredibly wealthy, while undercutting the majority of the public. He wants to turn Britain into a Singapore-style unregulated economy by freeing Britain from the EU's strict regulations to prevent this.

The immigration argument is specious; around >30% of immigration is from the EU, as the rest is from the Commonwealth and other countries, which Britain has full control over. Moreover, these EU immigrants are usually the greatest contributors to British society and contribute to a net gain in the economy; if immigration is really a cause for complaint, then non-EU immigration should be dealt with first.

If the EU is such an evident detriment to Britain, why didn't Thatcher (arguably the most anti-EU Prime Minister) leave when she had the chance? Perhaps she saw the real benefit the EU has to Britain and the necessity of our membership.
(Original post by Burridge)
If you think that the misinformation from Remain and Leave was balanced then I'd say that you didn't follow the campaigns closely enough. The FullFact website couldn't even keep up at one point with the amount of gaffes and half-truths that Leave were spreading.

Be it misinformation about our membership costs, that we didn't have to leave the Single Market, Turkey joining the EU imminently, the classic £350m for the NHS, the list is endless.

The British media has been publishing demonstrably false headlines about the EU for decades. This has fed into the false narrative being spread by Leavers. The EU has published a full list of rebuttals:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...ths-a-z-index/



I was responding to a specific post in the thread, not the OP. I've posted my views on Brexit below. Not to mention your post isn't relevant to the question "is Brexit right for the UK" either :dontknow:
Last edited by MoTheCucumber; 1 year ago
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Sam marsden666
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1. You say your despise Brexit and immediately associated it with a backwards ideology which is simply unfair and people voting for the UK to leave the EU on principles of freedom is not at all backwards is it mate. Brexit allows the UK to have more control and become MORE GLOBALIZED as i will explain.

2. the long term economic argument While in the EU the UK is forced to have the same external tariffs as every other member state which is a system that simply does not work given the huge differences in the economies between the southern and northern countries of the EU. This external tariff has meant that the UK has not been able to maximize trade to its own advantage as potential deals with places like the USA have been blocked due to countries like France having their cheese industry damaged. Therefore if we leave the EU we have the option to specalise our trade policy to use alone with countries such as the USA, Canada, India, China, South Korea and many many others offering us trade deals that will benefit us if we leave. Not only this there is a huge number of countries in Africa and Asia developing at a rapid pace and if we are in the EU then the EU could prevent us form forming bonds with these countries that will benefit us in the long term due to decreased costs of production and also amazing potential investments. With all of these benefits the UK does can also have free trade with the EU under Article 23 for 2 years and during that time period a free trade deal can be sorted to prevent WTO rules from being put in place. Therefore we will keep free trade in the EU while having closer economic ties elsewhere in the world that benefit the British people. The world is not just Europe, stop having such a Eurocentric view of the world. In economic terms the Brexit allows the UK to become more globalized in the long term and allow trade to be dictated by comparative advantage which will decrease import prices and increase the UK export international competitiveness therefore increasing standards of living.

3.You make many logical fallacies in your points in your post one being "Benefited the UK profoundly over the past 50 years". Just because EU membership has benefited us in the past it does not mean it will in the future. Poland is an absolute mess as it has became infested with far right politicians and they have completely politicized the courts system, preventing the separation of powers. And the EU has absolutely no way of dealing with this mess as Hungry will veto any action taken against them as they to have a very right wing leader. The EU is no longer a paragon of freedom and safety it has become exploited. There is also the case of Italy which is also having huge disputes with the EU over there spending as the EU are trying to prevent increased spending in the country.
the economic context of the UK was very different now compared to the UK now and the EU has tried controlling countries like Italy and has lost power of Authoritarian governments in the East..

4. 16 year olds such definitely not be able to vote. At my school everyone loudly proclaimed how stupid Brexit was without even knowing what a common market or customs union is! People below 18 simple conform to what their family and friends think and have no idea what ideas are good, they are manipulated by what sounds good e.g raising the minimum wage sounds like a good thing but actually is not, but people my age only use their emotions to make choices, not facts and logic and remain rhetoric of "fighting hatred" and "sticking together" is a propaganda trap many MANY young people will fall into.


(Original post by Burridge)
I voted to Remain. I despise Brexit. I intensely dislike the politics that it represents (insular, intolerant, backwards looking) and believe that membership of the EU has benefited the UK profoundly over the past 50 years.

I also support votes at 16. This has nothing to with strategy for winning elections; I support votes at 16 because I feel as though 16 year olds are capable of rational thought and should be able to make an informed decision about something which will profoundly shape their lives.
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Sam marsden666
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2. the long term economic argument While in the EU the UK is forced to have the same external tariffs as every other member state which is a system that simply does not work given the huge differences in the economies between the southern and northern countries of the EU. This external tariff has meant that the UK has not been able to maximize trade to its own advantage as potential deals with places like the USA have been blocked due to countries like France having their cheese industry damaged. Therefore if we leave the EU we have the option to specalise our trade policy to use alone with countries such as the USA, Canada, India, China, South Korea and many many others offering us trade deals that will benefit us if we leave. Not only this there is a huge number of countries in Africa and Asia developing at a rapid pace and if we are in the EU then the EU could prevent us form forming bonds with these countries that will benefit us in the long term due to decreased costs of production and also amazing potential investments. With all of these benefits the UK does can also have free trade with the EU under Article 23 for 2 years and during that time period a free trade deal can be sorted to prevent WTO rules from being put in place. Therefore we will keep free trade in the EU while having closer economic ties elsewhere in the world that benefit the British people. The world is not just Europe, stop having such a Eurocentric view of the world. In economic terms the Brexit allows the UK to become more globalized in the long term and allow trade to be dictated by comparative advantage which will decrease import prices and increase the UK export international competitiveness therefore increasing standards of living.

3.You make many logical fallacies in your points in your post one being "Benefited the UK profoundly over the past 50 years". Just because EU membership has benefited us in the past it does not mean it will in the future. Poland is an absolute mess as it has became infested with far right politicians and they have completely politicized the courts system, preventing the separation of powers. And the EU has absolutely no way of dealing with this mess as Hungry will veto any action taken against them as they to have a very right wing leader. The EU is no longer a paragon of freedom and safety it has become exploited. There is also the case of Italy which is also having huge disputes with the EU over there spending as the EU are trying to prevent increased spending in the country.
the economic context of the UK was very different now compared to the UK now and the EU has tried controlling countries like Italy and has lost power of Authoritarian governments in the East..

4. 16 year olds such definitely not be able to vote. At my school everyone loudly proclaimed how stupid Brexit was without even knowing what a common market or customs union is! People below 18 simple conform to what their family and friends think and have no idea what ideas are good, they are manipulated by what sounds good e.g raising the minimum wage sounds like a good thing but actually is not, but people my age only use their emotions to make choices, not facts and logic and remain rhetoric of "fighting hatred" and "sticking together" is a propaganda trap many MANY young people will fall into.


(Original post by MoTheCucumber)
What are the reasons you did/would have voted to leave?
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Jamesy11
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I was somewhat on the fence at the time, but would vote leave now if I had the chance. A couple of things have led to this change:

1. The way the EU have treated the UK in the negotiations has been poor. I can't pardon our government for their poor negotiation, but the EU has shown an unwillingness to compromise and many of its leaders have openly stated their disdain for our country.

2. The reaction of Remain voters has been terrible. Instead of trying to unite the country, they have undermined our negotiating position and have generally shut down debate, particularly within more left-leaning circles. I don't know what has happened these past 4-5 years but it seems to be a recent development that the losing side just calls for a re-run whenever things go the other way.

3. I don't believe that being restricted by the conditions of the customs union is beneficial to the UK. British Steel recently went under as a result of an EU carbon tax, and the UK couldn't protect this industry cause of anti-competition laws.

I have a few other reasons but I think that these sum it up.
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username8408717
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People should really stop making these threads, it's getting soooo repetitive :banghead:

Brexit is bad, that's all you need to know
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The Mogg
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A TSR thread about Brexit, never seen one of these before.
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Burridge
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(Original post by TheRealSquiddy)
I don't think letting younger than 18 y/o vote is in anyone's best interest, it's been this what for years and it's democratic and fair, now if you changed it to "those over 18 and those over 16 paying taxes" I'd be more inclined to agree with that.
By this token, are you suggesting that votes at 16 would be 'undemocratic and unfair'?

Your argument seems to suggest that simply because we've have votes at 18 for some time, that this is a case for things not to change. The voting age was lowered to 18 in 1969 - 50 years ago. Universal suffrage at 21 was introduced in 1918 - this means that the gap between votes at 21 and votes at 18 was 51 years. The argument of longevity (thankfully) didn't wash back then and it certainly shouldn't now either.
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Sam marsden666
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Good thinking, you add to my points perfectly. Remain voters seem to not be very understanding






(Original post by Jamesy11)
I was somewhat on the fence at the time, but would vote leave now if I had the chance. A couple of things have led to this change:

1. The way the EU have treated the UK in the negotiations has been poor. I can't pardon our government for their poor negotiation, but the EU has shown an unwillingness to compromise and many of its leaders have openly stated their disdain for our country.

2. The reaction of Remain voters has been terrible. Instead of trying to unite the country, they have undermined our negotiating position and have generally shut down debate, particularly within more left-leaning circles. I don't know what has happened these past 4-5 years but it seems to be a recent development that the losing side just calls for a re-run whenever things go the other way.

3. I don't believe that being restricted by the conditions of the customs union is beneficial to the UK. British Steel recently went under as a result of an EU carbon tax, and the UK couldn't protect this industry cause of anti-competition laws.

I have a few other reasons but I think that these sum it up.
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Sam marsden666
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You seem to reply to everyone but me mate.
(Original post by Burridge)
By this token, are you suggesting that votes at 16 would be 'undemocratic and unfair'?

Your argument seems to suggest that simply because we've have votes at 18 for some time, that this is a case for things not to change. The voting age was lowered to 18 in 1969 - 50 years ago. Universal suffrage at 21 was introduced in 1918 - this means that the gap between votes at 21 and votes at 18 was 51 years. The argument of longevity (thankfully) didn't wash back then and it certainly shouldn't now either.
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Burridge
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(Original post by Sam marsden666)
You seem to reply to everyone but me mate.
You posted your essay 8 minutes ago and I submitted a reply to someone else 4 minutes ago. Aren't I allowed to spend 4 minutes replying to somebody else without you trying to jump on my case? Why are people so needy :rolleyes:
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