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Brexit

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Because i need a distraction from my exams god dammit **** wars of the roses!!!!!!!!
Original post by burridge
you posted your essay 8 minutes ago and i submitted a reply to someone else 4 minutes ago. Aren't i allowed to spend 4 minutes replying to somebody else without you trying to jump on my case? Why are people so needy :rolleyes:
Original post by Burridge
By this token, are you suggesting that votes at 16 would be 'undemocratic and unfair'?

Your argument seems to suggest that simply because we've have votes at 18 for some time, that this is a case for things not to change. The voting age was lowered to 18 in 1969 - 50 years ago. Universal suffrage at 21 was introduced in 1918 - this means that the gap between votes at 21 and votes at 18 was 51 years. The argument of longevity (thankfully) didn't wash back then and it certainly shouldn't now either.


No, not at all.

And actually did you read my second point within my argument, that I would welcome it to those who pay taxes, I would also welcome it to all who pay national insurance. Effectively, they are contributing to society by paying into a system which will eventually give back and should have right to say what happens within that system.
I’d rather not get into yet another full-scale debate about this. People are bored of reading endless arguments from both sides, it’s a waste of everyones time because there’s nothing that you and I will say that hasn’t been said before.

You can speculate all you like about how being shackled to the EU has been bad for the economy and will continue to be so in the long term. I’m not an expert in economics and neither are you. Incidentally though, 90% of economists polled by Ipsos MORI believe that leaving the EU will damage the British economy. As does the IMF. As do the CBI. As do a majority of SMEs. As do the Bank of England. Almost all of the economic literature surrounding the issue suggests that Brexit will adversely effect our economy.

Nobody can truly predict the long term, which may very well be your get-out-jail card. But even people on your side are now beginning to accept the economic damage that Brexit may bring - such as this Brexit Party candidate who concedes that people may be worse off for “up to 30 years”

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1129711578662801408

My question, simply, is what do YOU know, in all your wisdom, that just about all major economists don’t? Because no matter what you say, over the issue of the economy, I’ll be siding with them.

It isn’t a logical fallacy to suggest that being in the EU has ‘benefited the UK profoundly over the past 50 years’. It would be reckless to assume that solely because we have benefited from it in the past that we will certainly benefit from it in the future, but that was inferred from my post. For absolutely clarity then, I also believe that continued membership will benefit us profoundly.

I believe that the EU has benefited our economy and will continue to do so; I believe the EU strengthens our rights, freedoms and our democracy; I believe that the EU gives us greater clout in an increasingly polarised world; and I believe that the EU offers us protection and increases our safety & security.

And what makes you think that 16 year old are any less informed than 18+ years olds? Are you aware that the second-most googled question the morning AFTER the referendum was “What is the EU?” Do you not find a great sense of shamefully irony in that?

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/leave-remain-brexit-uk-google-trends-what-is-eu-european-union-referendum-what-happens-now

Original post by Sam marsden666
2. the long term economic argument While in the EU the UK is forced to have the same external tariffs as every other member state which is a system that simply does not work given the huge differences in the economies between the southern and northern countries of the EU. This external tariff has meant that the UK has not been able to maximize trade to its own advantage as potential deals with places like the USA have been blocked due to countries like France having their cheese industry damaged. Therefore if we leave the EU we have the option to specalise our trade policy to use alone with countries such as the USA, Canada, India, China, South Korea and many many others offering us trade deals that will benefit us if we leave. Not only this there is a huge number of countries in Africa and Asia developing at a rapid pace and if we are in the EU then the EU could prevent us form forming bonds with these countries that will benefit us in the long term due to decreased costs of production and also amazing potential investments. With all of these benefits the UK does can also have free trade with the EU under Article 23 for 2 years and during that time period a free trade deal can be sorted to prevent WTO rules from being put in place. Therefore we will keep free trade in the EU while having closer economic ties elsewhere in the world that benefit the British people. The world is not just Europe, stop having such a Eurocentric view of the world. In economic terms the Brexit allows the UK to become more globalized in the long term and allow trade to be dictated by comparative advantage which will decrease import prices and increase the UK export international competitiveness therefore increasing standards of living.

3.You make many logical fallacies in your points in your post one being "Benefited the UK profoundly over the past 50 years". Just because EU membership has benefited us in the past it does not mean it will in the future. Poland is an absolute mess as it has became infested with far right politicians and they have completely politicized the courts system, preventing the separation of powers. And the EU has absolutely no way of dealing with this mess as Hungry will veto any action taken against them as they to have a very right wing leader. The EU is no longer a paragon of freedom and safety it has become exploited. There is also the case of Italy which is also having huge disputes with the EU over there spending as the EU are trying to prevent increased spending in the country.
the economic context of the UK was very different now compared to the UK now and the EU has tried controlling countries like Italy and has lost power of Authoritarian governments in the East..

4. 16 year olds such definitely not be able to vote. At my school everyone loudly proclaimed how stupid Brexit was without even knowing what a common market or customs union is! People below 18 simple conform to what their family and friends think and have no idea what ideas are good, they are manipulated by what sounds good e.g raising the minimum wage sounds like a good thing but actually is not, but people my age only use their emotions to make choices, not facts and logic and remain rhetoric of "fighting hatred" and "sticking together" is a propaganda trap many MANY young people will fall into.
Original post by TheRealSquiddy
No, not at all.

And actually did you read my second point within my argument, that I would welcome it to those who pay taxes, I would also welcome it to all who pay national insurance. Effectively, they are contributing to society by paying into a system which will eventually give back and should have right to say what happens within that system.


I read your entire point. The first point you made - before you mentioned taxes - was “I don't think letting younger than 18 y/o vote is in anyone's best interest, it's been this what for years and it's democratic and fair”.

Simply, because “it’s been this [way] for years” isn’t an argument in itself. This is why I mentioned that the gap between the reduction from 21 to 18 is LONGER than the gap between 18 and now.

And again, to say that the reason you support votes at 18 because “it’s democratic and fair” implies that a lowering of the age to 16 would be “undemocratic and unfair”. I know you don’t believe that to be true, I’m just trying to get to the bottom of your objections against votes at 16.
I'm not old enough to vote but I'm glad this is the case, as I dont trust people my age to educate themselves properly on different political perspectives and make a judgement independent of parental/educational influences.

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