Free Will and God, the issue..

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JustOneMoreThing
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In Islam it is taught that you have free will, you can choose the Apple over the Orange or vice versa.

Take Adam and Eve for example, did God know what they would do, did He know they would go against his orders and pick a fruit from the tree He said not to?

Now if you say no He didn't know, then comes the problem of omniscience, if He doesn't know something He cannot be 'all knowing' can He.

But let's say you answer with yes, He did, He knew exactly what was going to happen and watched, this poses a problem, if He knew this then what was the point of ordering them and then punishing them, He knew they would sin, so in the larger scale of things He made it happen, He invented this chain of events.

So why do anything?

Thoughts are welcome as always.

Let's say you answer 'yes, but He knows what happens after you choose, He knows what things will happen after you decide, this brings back the issue from the second text, so there really is no logical answer which you can respond with without removing omniscience from the picture or making it so that all events are programmed by God, so there is no point in anything.

Discuss.
Last edited by JustOneMoreThing; 2 years ago
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DarthRoar
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Inb4 all that 'god is omnipotent and we can't comprehend his motives' BS.
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JustOneMoreThing
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(Original post by DarthRoar)
Inb4 all that 'god is omnipotent and we can't comprehend his motives' BS.
Makes me wonder what a person's political stance is if they follow that line of thought.
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username3900288
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Free will is an illusory concept, as all of your decisions are determined unconsciously and are influenced by your interactions with the environment.
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username2013595
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The more you question religion the more of your precious time you waste because it ends up being a bunch of fallacies. I think about it often and debate people just out of burden but I think that religion has stood to rest the time to justify wars and declare wars in groups of people as well as for those in power to control masses of people. There’s no true explanation for religions as they’re all based on a faith system meaning you believe with no proof.

in terms of free will i agree with the above poster we have free will within the realm of our perception of what society tells us we cannot do
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SlightlySummer
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Predestination
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Retired_Messiah
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Calvinism holds that God literally did ordain the fall, for some reason. Obvious questions include "why" and "the **** bro", but it fixes the basic theological problem I suppose.
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Gent2324
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(Original post by TheNamesBond.)
In Islam it is taught that you have free will, you can choose the Apple over the Orange or vice versa.

Take Adam and Eve for example, did God know what they would do, did He know they would go against his orders and pick a fruit from the tree He said not to?

Now if you say no He didn't know, then comes the problem of omniscience, if He doesn't know something He cannot be 'all knowing' can He.

But let's say you answer with yes, He did, He knew exactly what was going to happen and watched, this poses a problem, if He knew this then what was the point of ordering them and then punishing them, He knew they would sin, so in the larger scale of things He made it happen, He invented this chain of events.

So why do anything?

Thoughts are welcome as always.

Let's say you answer 'yes, but He knows what happens after you choose, He knows what things will happen after you decide, this brings back the issue from the second text, so there really is no logical answer which you can respond with without removing omniscience from the picture or making it so that all events are programmed by God, so there is no point in anything.

Discuss.
i thought islam teaches predestination? so there is no free will since allah has determined everything that happens?
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Justbeingmyself
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Also another interesting question, why punish the rest of humanity for Eve's wrongdoing?
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Ed1397
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(Original post by DarthRoar)
Inb4 all that 'god is omnipotent and we can't comprehend his motives' BS.
Is that not a reasonable statement? It's certainly coherent with the definitive ontological characteristics of God. If humans are to fully understand and know the properties and ways of God then faith is empty and purposeless. Just as you cannot have faith that apples fall from trees, you cannot have faith in a God that is of immediate recognition and complete understanding to the human mind.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Ed1397)
Is that not a reasonable statement? It's certainly coherent with the definitive ontological characteristics of God. If humans are to fully understand and know the properties and ways of God then faith is empty and purposeless.
Yes, faith is "empty and purposeless".

(Original post by Ed1397)
Just as you cannot have faith that apples fall from trees, you cannot have faith in a God that is of immediate recognition and complete understanding to the human mind.
Obvious illogic on the part of claimed "all-powerful" deities is just evidence that they're man-made.
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Ed1397
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(Original post by JustOneMoreThing)
Makes me wonder what a person's political stance is if they follow that line of thought.
That could not be more irrelevant. Politics is of humanity and concerns material conditions. God, whether you believe in one or not, is definitively beyond both of those.
It's quite obvious that there are politicians of all parties and stances that believe in God.
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BlondeWhiteGuy
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(Original post by JustOneMoreThing)
In Islam it is taught that you have free will, you can choose the Apple over the Orange or vice versa.

Take Adam and Eve for example, did God know what they would do, did He know they would go against his orders and pick a fruit from the tree He said not to?

Now if you say no He didn't know, then comes the problem of omniscience, if He doesn't know something He cannot be 'all knowing' can He.

But let's say you answer with yes, He did, He knew exactly what was going to happen and watched, this poses a problem, if He knew this then what was the point of ordering them and then punishing them, He knew they would sin, so in the larger scale of things He made it happen, He invented this chain of events.

So why do anything?

Thoughts are welcome as always.

Let's say you answer 'yes, but He knows what happens after you choose, He knows what things will happen after you decide, this brings back the issue from the second text, so there really is no logical answer which you can respond with without removing omniscience from the picture or making it so that all events are programmed by God, so there is no point in anything.

Discuss.
God needs to provide an option aside from doing good. Without knowledge of evil, you cannot logically say that you are truely good. You might as well be a slave.

It is the fact that you have the option to do evil but instead choose to do good, despite the fact that God punishes you, is what makes your love for God real.
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Ed1397
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Yes, faith is "empty and purposeless".


Obvious illogic on the part of claimed "all-powerful" deities is just evidence that they're man-mad
To claim that you'd have to fully know God...and yet you claim he doesn't exist. It's either one or the other. You can't claim both.
There's nothing illogical about omnipotence. If it's the "God can't lift rock" argument you refer to then you should understand that that, like any other antitheist argument, has it's validity based purely in incorrect presuppositions about what omnipotence is.
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AnonymousNoMore
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Free will is an illusion in religion. Look at Christianity, they believe that reason is determined by the soul, but they also believe that God created the soul. Therefore God created your reason and choices. You can't have it both ways.
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DarthRoar
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(Original post by Ed1397)
Is that not a reasonable statement? It's certainly coherent with the definitive ontological characteristics of God. If humans are to fully understand and know the properties and ways of God then faith is empty and purposeless. Just as you cannot have faith that apples fall from trees, you cannot have faith in a God that is of immediate recognition and complete understanding to the human mind.
It would be coherent with the characteristics of a god. However, it relies on the presupposition that one exists. There is zero good evidence that there is a god, and no good reason to believe there is one. Thus, the statement has no foundation.

(Original post by Ed1397)
There's nothing illogical about omnipotence. If it's the "God can't lift rock" argument you refer to then you should understand that that, like any other antitheist argument, has it's validity based purely in incorrect presuppositions about what omnipotence is.
Omnipotence is illogical. Every definitive piece of evidence we've ever collected leads us to the conclusion that the universe follows laws which are absolute. Breaking them would be impossible, and would make no sense. There is no reason to believe omnipotence could be a thing.
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Ed1397
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(Original post by AnonymousNoMore)
Free will is an illusion in religion. Look at Christianity, they believe that reason is determined by the soul, but they also believe that God created the soul. Therefore God created your reason and choices. You can't have it both ways.
Surely that assumes that in creating the soul, God determined its future? Or that from it's inception, the rationality of the soul is predetermined by the properties it is given?
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Ed1397)
To claim that you'd have to fully know God...and yet you claim he doesn't exist. It's either one or the other. You can't claim both.
I didn't claim that. What I actually said is:
(Original post by RogerOxon)
Obvious illogic on the part of claimed "all-powerful" deities is just evidence that they're man-made.
Do you understand the difference?
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AnonymousNoMore
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(Original post by Ed1397)
Surely that assumes that in creating the soul, God determined its future? Or that from it's inception, the rationality of the soul is predetermined by the properties it is given?
But God creates the soul. It cannot change otherwise its not Gods creation. And the same applies for its properties, either its properties are determined by God or he didn't create all
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Ed1397
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(Original post by DarthRoar)
It would be coherent with the characteristics of a god. However, it relies on the presupposition that one exists. There is zero good evidence that there is a god, and no good reason to believe there is one. Thus, the statement has no foundation.



Omnipotence is illogical. Every definitive piece of evidence we've ever collected leads us to the conclusion that the universe follows laws which are absolute. Breaking them would be impossible, and would make no sense. There is no reason to believe omnipotence could be a thing.
The idea that presupposition that God exists is required to determine the properties of God is a complete misunderstanding of the logical foundation of faith.
Faith doesn't determine the ontological nature of God otherwise one can just define God as anything at all, material or immaterial. I could say "God is a unicorn, and I believe in unicorns because it seems plausible that horse with horns exist. Evolutionary logic dictates a possibility that horses evolved to have horns in order to defend themselves."
It is in fact the complete opposite. At the very base of theistic belief is that there is an immaterial solution to the question "Where did everything come from?" And from that, the termination of the infinite regress of cause and effect is formulated, and in turn, that is named God.
The logical answer to this question dictates the ontological properties of God, and through the determination of these ontological properties that it is concluded, God MUST exist.
The question on whether or not there is evidence is laughable. Why should there be evidence? Not everything must be proven through evidence. The fact that number theory exists is a clear answer to such a question. What evidence must I produce to show that 2+2=4? Any evidence you can produce is preceded by number theory, not proof of it.
Lastly, I would love to know what conclusive evidence we have that extends observation to the very limiting corners of existence and time itself so as to determine that all things are within these absolute laws you speak of and lead us to the capability of looking at where God is claimed to be and say "I see no God."
Last I heard atheists thought were just products of probability and dust, now we know the nature of all existence itself?
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