Muppetress
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Hey guys,

I've come across this Uniadmissions program that advertise over 60% success rate for Oxbridge applicants. I took an interest in their Law program, which, to me at least, seems pretty comprehensive. All the people there are former Oxbridge students themselves who performed well academically. I want to ask if such a program is worth it, because if the success rate is true, it seems like a worthwhile investment, considering they ask for thousands of pounds in return. Thoughts?
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Oxford Mum
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Oxford university does not condone these courses, as they are very expensive and do not guarantee success. Ironically I have just written a book about applying for Oxford called Oxford demystified. I helped both my sons into Oxford and many of their friends too. My latest protege got in for law ( senior status. He will be writing his own chapter of why he was attracted to the course, the resources he used, the competition he entered, how he aced the lnat, how he felt at interview ( not the questions though) and how he felt as he got in. I also helped to motivate him, and I think a lot of it is motivation. Please see the motivational sections in the book for more. My friend has to get a first in his degree so he cannot write the chapter yet, but he will do it after August.

I am pleased to tell you my book and the other chapters are FREE OF CHARGE to read. Why not take a look at it, and then decide whether it’s worth shelling out thousands?

In the meantime please go to court and watch some trials ( dress smartly). You can see regional cases in the magistrates court and even murder trials if you are prepared to travel to a city

When I get home I will send you some interview questions ( in public domain) YouTube interviews, reading lists etc. Plus anything else I can think of.

My son once went in a get into medical school course. It cost £100. When he got out he said it was exactly the same advice but they advised him to do something unusual like taking flying lessons to stand out.

Speak to you later

Best wishes, om
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Oxford Mum
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Which type of school do you go to?

This will influence my reply
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Muppetress
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Wow, thank you for all the kind words and support! I would be delighted to read the book, as well as access the information you mentioned.

The thing is, I go to a private school in Canada. I had applied last October before for Law, got an interview, but was rejected after interview. Oxford is a dream for me, and means enough that I'll be applying again this year. My school, although private, is not used to students applying to the UK but instead Canada and the US. I am familiar with the process of applying and interviews to some level as I went through it already.
(Original post by Oxford Mum)
Which type of school do you go to?

This will influence my reply
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HMDN12
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Is there a link to your book please?
(Original post by Oxford Mum)
Oxford university does not condone these courses, as they are very expensive and do not guarantee success. Ironically I have just written a book about applying for Oxford called Oxford demystified. I helped both my sons into Oxford and many of their friends too. My latest protege got in for law ( senior status. He will be writing his own chapter of why he was attracted to the course, the resources he used, the competition he entered, how he aced the lnat, how he felt at interview ( not the questions though) and how he felt as he got in. I also helped to motivate him, and I think a lot of it is motivation. Please see the motivational sections in the book for more. My friend has to get a first in his degree so he cannot write the chapter yet, but he will do it after August.

I am pleased to tell you my book and the other chapters are FREE OF CHARGE to read. Why not take a look at it, and then decide whether it’s worth shelling out thousands?

In the meantime please go to court and watch some trials ( dress smartly). You can see regional cases in the magistrates court and even murder trials if you are prepared to travel to a city

When I get home I will send you some interview questions ( in public domain) YouTube interviews, reading lists etc. Plus anything else I can think of.

My son once went in a get into medical school course. It cost £100. When he got out he said it was exactly the same advice but they advised him to do something unusual like taking flying lessons to stand out.

Speak to you later

Best wishes, om
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DerivativeName
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Not really. Oxford don't really care about that sort of thing, and they're expensive. Remember most students won't have any sort of training, and in admissions tests and interviews they're not expecting you to be 'perfect' but testing how you think. Which can't really be learned. There are some tips and tricks, but nothing worth thousands.
(Original post by Muppetress)
Hey guys,

I've come across this Uniadmissions program that advertise over 60% success rate for Oxbridge applicants. I took an interest in their Law program, which, to me at least, seems pretty comprehensive. All the people there are former Oxbridge students themselves who performed well academically. I want to ask if such a program is worth it, because if the success rate is true, it seems like a worthwhile investment, considering they ask for thousands of pounds in return. Thoughts?
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Muppetress
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I wasnt planning to talk about it or anything. Thing is, I know that rehearsed answers and all that are bad, but im not sure how else to develop that mindset for problem solving and verbal debate. That is something you can develop.
(Original post by DerivativeName)
Not really. Oxford don't really care about that sort of thing, and they're expensive. Remember most students won't have any sort of training, and in admissions tests and interviews they're not expecting you to be 'perfect' but testing how you think. Which can't really be learned. There are some tips and tricks, but nothing worth thousands.
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Oxford Mum
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Thanks for replying. Chapters not open yet, but am working as fast as I can!
Did Oxford give you feedback? What did they say? Is there anything you can improve on?

Are you allowed to attend court cases in Canada? If so it’s worth it. Think about what the lawyers are saying- do you agree or disagree? Could you have said it any better. How would you describe the personalities of the accused/ defendant? How would this affect the way you question them?

If you already have the equivalent of a levels and your grades are good, at least you don’t have to worry about that. Could you also apply to good Canadian law schools as a back up?

The trouble with law is it is a bit of a je ne sais quoi subject. By this I mean with other subjects you can read your way in, however with law you need other qualities. I read in a book called the devils advocate ( an easy read which I really enjoy) he describes a court case as a polite argument between two lawyers. In other words, it’s the two lawyers skills that matter more than anything else. You could have a virtually open and shut case, but a really skilled lawyer may be able to demolish it. Although this won’t get you into Oxford, if you can buy a british dvd called silk. This is about a law firm in London. One of the lawyers was a posh private school guy who went to brasenose. The other, a woman from a Russel group uni, has a mind as sharp as a bacon slicer. She is a people person , cares deeply about her clients, leaves no stone unturned when it comes to preparation and comes over as sincere and passionate. Of course she is a much better lawyer than her public school counterpart! As you have already been to an Oxford interview, you will know it is partly about logic and reasoning.

It is about persuasion and being able to convince others to change their minds. And about charm , even a sense of humour at the appropriate time. Most things are possible with the right attitude

I can recall going to the Houses of Parliament with my children to watch a debate . As luck would have it, prime minister Gordon brown was giving a major speech, and the house was packed with famous MPs. The speech was very moving and was enough to bring tears to your eyes. His opposite number, David Cameron was busily taking notes. So then at the end of the speech Cameron had to make a response using just those notes. Well, he absolutely slaughtered him! He would make jokes such as what happened to the privatisation of the Royal Mail? Did it get lost in the post? By the time he had finished we had forgotten what Gordon brown had even said. All of us were very impressed. And look at Churchill in the film the darkest hour. At times only his words stood between us and German domination. The world turns on a bit of artful persuasion.

You can probably apply to some Canadian law firms for work shadowing. I know this is hard to come by in the uk because of confidentiality. My uncle was a partner in a law firm and he had to send students out of the room so much it wasn’t worth it.
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Oxford Mum
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One thing you can apply for is the citizens advice bureau ( if you have the equivalent in Canada. This provides a free legal service for people who have a legal problem but who cannot afford lawyers. The advice is provided for free. Qualified lawyers do attend these sessions and my uncle insisted his employees did work at the cab. However you mostly have to be 18. So if this the case in Canada , and you can volunteer you will have an advantage many Oxford prospectives do not have. You can understand and break down the problem, maybe do a bit of research yourself and watch how the lawyers themselves operate. You will learn to have empathy for the client and have the joy of using your brains and knowledge for help someone who cannot stand up for themselves. You have to have some fight in you and battle for your clients. The sense of joy when you get justice for someone will make it all worthwhile
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Oxford Mum
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You also need to ask yourself if you are applying for law at Oxford because it is posh. I don’t mean you personally but I have seen it before and the interviewers will soon root them out.

The important thing is to keep your cool and concentrate. I have known people who give up and whose minds cut off, either because they are not inspired by the questions or they panic. Don’t lose hope! One law candidate burst into tears in her interview but still got in. It’s really important to say your thoughts out loud so the interviewers can see your thought processes. It’s vital you back up everything you say, if possible, with evidence. Even if what you say is completely wrong if there is a point to your theory they could still be impressed. Expect the interviewers to take an opposing view to you as well. They will want someone with spirit and pluck, who is able to argue a point but who also knows when to concede. I knew someone who went for a law interview at Cambridge who argued at length with the professor. The parents, who were professional people, were horrified that she had dared to be so rude to such an August person. However she did get her place!

Keep your concentration and when you receive your passage to analyse, try to see things from as many opposing angles as you can. Another skill you can hone is debating. Did you take part at school? Would they let you continue, even after you have left? Do you watch debates on tv? Are the Canadian parliament debates televised, as they are in the uk?

Normally I would send you suggestions of schemes if you were in an underrepresented group ( eg in a uk comprehensive ). Or details of a uk debating competition like the European youth parliament. However my task is not straightforward as you are at a private school outside Europe. It may be you need to do some research into debating groups or competitions in Canada. Have you tried the model United Nations? I don’t know if this is available in Canada but if so it is worth pursuing. Look it up on the internet. You don’t have to look too far to find a debating forum: there are loads of such threads. Try your hand at them yourself. Who are the best debaters? Why are they so skilful? Maybe you can assimilate some of their techniques. The very best incorporate articles and statistics into their answers as definitive proof. You will notice that the bad debaters will soon change the subject!

Maybe you will have an opportunity to use charm and persuasion to get what you want in every day life. Try it and see if it yields any results.

When I get back I will send you some links to set books and lots of interview sample questions. I will also see if there are any Cambridge essay competitions who will accept entries from year 13.
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Oxford Mum
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Sorry I meant comment on the debating threads on the student room. There are often law students and sometimes even qualified lawyers on there
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mishieru07
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(Original post by Muppetress)
I wasnt planning to talk about it or anything. Thing is, I know that rehearsed answers and all that are bad, but im not sure how else to develop that mindset for problem solving and verbal debate. That is something you can develop.
Ex-Law student here.

Personally, I would read plenty of current affairs and news articles (both legal and non-legal), and spend some time really thinking about the issues from various perspectives (try reading coverage on the same issue from left vs right wing media, or from different countries). Find someone to bounce ideas off so you can practice verbalizing your thoughts in a logical and coherent manner. Good students are teachable - ideally, the tutors are probably looking for candidates who are confident in expressing their opinions, but also open to new information and suggestions.

For example, the Hong Kong legislature is currently debating a very controversial extradition bill. Let's say the question for discussion is "Do you think the extradition bill is good law"? Off the top of my head, the questions I would consider are: What's the content of the bill and how does it work? How would I define "good law"? Does "good" mean morally right? If so, what happens if there are conflicting moral aims (e.g. closing a legal loophole by ensuring that Hong Kong citizens and residents who commit (alleged) crimes overseas can be extradited and appropriately tried and punished vs protecting citizens and residents from potential abuse by states who deliberately seek to persecute political and religious opponents)? Are there any safeguards that can potentially mitigate such problems? Ultimately, do I think it is better to have such a law or not (i.e. which is the lesser evil)?

You can do this with pretty much any issue - e.g. freedom of speech and religion vs anti-discrimination (Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission), abortion rights, death penalty, refugee law and immigration policy. I'm also going to be unorthodox and suggest the change my view subreddit as an example of how people argue opposing viewpoints.

You should also read some case law and statutes because those are often used in interviews. I have various suggestions if you search my post history.
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BrasenoseAdm
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(Original post by Oxford Mum)
Thanks for replying. Chapters not open yet, but am working as fast as I can!
Did Oxford give you feedback? What did they say? Is there anything you can improve on?

Are you allowed to attend court cases in Canada? If so it’s worth it. Think about what the lawyers are saying- do you agree or disagree? Could you have said it any better. How would you describe the personalities of the accused/ defendant? How would this affect the way you question them?

If you already have the equivalent of a levels and your grades are good, at least you don’t have to worry about that. Could you also apply to good Canadian law schools as a back up?

The trouble with law is it is a bit of a je ne sais quoi subject. By this I mean with other subjects you can read your way in, however with law you need other qualities. I read in a book called the devils advocate ( an easy read which I really enjoy) he describes a court case as a polite argument between two lawyers. In other words, it’s the two lawyers skills that matter more than anything else. You could have a virtually open and shut case, but a really skilled lawyer may be able to demolish it. Although this won’t get you into Oxford, if you can buy a british dvd called silk. This is about a law firm in London. One of the lawyers was a posh private school guy who went to brasenose. The other, a woman from a Russel group uni, has a mind as sharp as a bacon slicer. She is a people person , cares deeply about her clients, leaves no stone unturned when it comes to preparation and comes over as sincere and passionate. Of course she is a much better lawyer than her public school counterpart! As you have already been to an Oxford interview, you will know it is partly about logic and reasoning.

It is about persuasion and being able to convince others to change their minds. And about charm , even a sense of humour at the appropriate time. Most things are possible with the right attitude

I can recall going to the Houses of Parliament with my children to watch a debate . As luck would have it, prime minister Gordon brown was giving a major speech, and the house was packed with famous MPs. The speech was very moving and was enough to bring tears to your eyes. His opposite number, David Cameron was busily taking notes. So then at the end of the speech Cameron had to make a response using just those notes. Well, he absolutely slaughtered him! He would make jokes such as what happened to the privatisation of the Royal Mail? Did it get lost in the post? By the time he had finished we had forgotten what Gordon brown had even said. All of us were very impressed. And look at Churchill in the film the darkest hour. At times only his words stood between us and German domination. The world turns on a bit of artful persuasion.

You can probably apply to some Canadian law firms for work shadowing. I know this is hard to come by in the uk because of confidentiality. My uncle was a partner in a law firm and he had to send students out of the room so much it wasn’t worth it.
"Although this won’t get you into Oxford, if you can buy a british dvd called silk. This is about a law firm in London. One of the lawyers was a posh private school guy who went to Brasenose. The other, a woman from a Russell group uni, has a mind as sharp as a bacon slicer."

You wrote the magic word "Brasenose" and we appear. Is this the TV series starring Maxine Peake as Martha Costello that ran 2011-14? We were funnily enough thinking about this series in the wake of the Michael Gove confessional since it implied that cocaine use was rife among criminal barristers (and not just confined to journalists). Just to be clear, Silk is wholly fictional but be that as it may, Martha Costello's chief rival to become QC is a character called Clive Reader (played by Rupert Penry-Jones). Anyway, the series includes the memorable line, which we think is uttered by Reader, that "Brasenose doesn't have any badly behaved men." As we just said, a completely fictional piece of telly legal floss.

Brasenose Admissions
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Muppetress
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Thank you once again. You can always PM me stuff as well if you'd like. I turned 18 recently as well if that helps. I guess with all this help, that program I was talking about wont be really worth it. As for inspiration, although the reputation and architecture are stunning and do attract my, what I like the most is the style of teaching: personalized tutoring and debate, always having your ideas challenged, being so close to the best minds in the world. Also, I'm not even sure if I will become a lawyer after the course, as I'm more interested in Law as an academic course. Oxford is one of the only places that treats the study of Law in this manner, as opposed to the US and Canada where Law school is just memorization until you get your high paying corporate job. I was never about that, and Oxford really holds everything I could ever want in a university. As for feedback, yes, I did request feedback after my interview. I was told that, while my performance was "decent" and I had done "moderately well" with a "good" application, nothing really stood out to place me in the top cohort. I had also done extremely little in the way of preparation or engagement within the realm of Law, so I hope that the second time around I can achieve success. You mentioned programs of support for state school students, if they are relevant I would be interested in those as well.

Once again thanks for the multitudes of information provided thus far. Does your son in particular have any advice, seeing he just got in for Law himself?
(Original post by Oxford Mum)
You also need to ask yourself if you are applying for law at Oxford because it is posh. I don’t mean you personally but I have seen it before and the interviewers will soon root them out.

The important thing is to keep your cool and concentrate. I have known people who give up and whose minds cut off, either because they are not inspired by the questions or they panic. Don’t lose hope! One law candidate burst into tears in her interview but still got in. It’s really important to say your thoughts out loud so the interviewers can see your thought processes. It’s vital you back up everything you say, if possible, with evidence. Even if what you say is completely wrong if there is a point to your theory they could still be impressed. Expect the interviewers to take an opposing view to you as well. They will want someone with spirit and pluck, who is able to argue a point but who also knows when to concede. I knew someone who went for a law interview at Cambridge who argued at length with the professor. The parents, who were professional people, were horrified that she had dared to be so rude to such an August person. However she did get her place!

Keep your concentration and when you receive your passage to analyse, try to see things from as many opposing angles as you can. Another skill you can hone is debating. Did you take part at school? Would they let you continue, even after you have left? Do you watch debates on tv? Are the Canadian parliament debates televised, as they are in the uk?

Normally I would send you suggestions of schemes if you were in an underrepresented group ( eg in a uk comprehensive ). Or details of a uk debating competition like the European youth parliament. However my task is not straightforward as you are at a private school outside Europe. It may be you need to do some research into debating groups or competitions in Canada. Have you tried the model United Nations? I don’t know if this is available in Canada but if so it is worth pursuing. Look it up on the internet. You don’t have to look too far to find a debating forum: there are loads of such threads. Try your hand at them yourself. Who are the best debaters? Why are they so skilful? Maybe you can assimilate some of their techniques. The very best incorporate articles and statistics into their answers as definitive proof. You will notice that the bad debaters will soon change the subject!

Maybe you will have an opportunity to use charm and persuasion to get what you want in every day life. Try it and see if it yields any results.

When I get back I will send you some links to set books and lots of interview sample questions. I will also see if there are any Cambridge essay competitions who will accept entries from year 13.
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Oxford Mum
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Yes it is. Glad you love silk too. Martha is a class act in how to be a great lawyer. Yes it is fictional, but I think her character is inspiring.
(Original post by BrasenoseAdm)
"Although this won’t get you into Oxford, if you can buy a british dvd called silk. This is about a law firm in London. One of the lawyers was a posh private school guy who went to Brasenose. The other, a woman from a Russell group uni, has a mind as sharp as a bacon slicer."

You wrote the magic word "Brasenose" and we appear. Is this the TV series starring Maxine Peake as Martha Costello that ran 2011-14? We were funnily enough thinking about this series in the wake of the Michael Gove confessional since it implied that cocaine use was rife among criminal barristers (and not just confined to journalists). Just to be clear, Silk is wholly fictional but be that as it may, Martha Costello's chief rival to become QC is a character called Clive Reader (played by Rupert Penry-Jones). Anyway, the series includes the memorable line, which we think is uttered by Reader, that "Brasenose doesn't have any badly behaved men." As we just said, a completely fictional piece of telly legal floss.

Brasenose Admissions
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Oxford Mum
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No. My sons got in for German and Medicine. The older son's friend got in for law.

Anyway, here is some legal reading for you.:

https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxf...ng_for_Law.pdf

Oxford reading list

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/unde...sources?wssl=1

Further resources

http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/study/und...lists/law.html

Cambridge: note they also recommend going to see trials in court

https://sites.google.com/site/oxbrid...wquestions/law

http://www.cambridgeinterviewquestio...ions/arts/law/

1,000 law interview questions and reading list for Cambridge - note the Devil's advocate is there!

Cambridge essay prizes - some not open yet
https://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/undergrad...ay-prizes/law/
https://www.jesus.cam.ac.uk/college/...ssay-prize-law

Many of these are just for year 12 (lower sixth), or Uk students, or state school students. Please check before applying that you are eligible.


Oxford law Website

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/

https://www.legalcheek.com/2017/11/1...ity-of-oxford/

Lawyer Portal
https://www.thelawyerportal.com/free...w-at-oxbridge/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ71KuCwhd0
Oxford Law youtube

Samantha Love provides great advice
https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/arti...ons-guide.html

https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/tag/law/page/3

Oxford law interview youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtwujubeOPE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co--IyKJxmE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTMEwoTDJIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Het8f7-_UUs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWN3y1we3b4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W45vagKCfHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuWOZI_ly1w

Obviously choose a different college from the one you did last time.
Also keenness is the key. You said you did not do much reading prep prep last time. You have time to put this right!!!
Look at what the former law student said about reading up on actual cases and pieces of legislature and then doing further reading about this subject.. It's important to specialise, as indeed the tutors do. Then you will have something unusual to put on your personal statement. My son, the medic, did a project on the explanatory gap in the brain (an area of medicine where there is no conclusive proof). He was asked to discuss this at interview.

Most candidates just read one or two of the Oxford/Cambridge reading list books. If you try the above, it may make a bit of a difference.
Ace the LNAT again. This goes without saying. I would like to see some real engagement from you and some specialisation.

Unfortunately you are not at a UK school or at a state schools so you would not be eligible for the schemes.

(Original post by Muppetress)
Thank you once again. You can always PM me stuff as well if you'd like. I turned 18 recently as well if that helps. I guess with all this help, that program I was talking about wont be really worth it. As for inspiration, although the reputation and architecture are stunning and do attract my, what I like the most is the style of teaching: personalized tutoring and debate, always having your ideas challenged, being so close to the best minds in the world. Also, I'm not even sure if I will become a lawyer after the course, as I'm more interested in Law as an academic course. Oxford is one of the only places that treats the study of Law in this manner, as opposed to the US and Canada where Law school is just memorization until you get your high paying corporate job. I was never about that, and Oxford really holds everything I could ever want in a university. As for feedback, yes, I did request feedback after my interview. I was told that, while my performance was "decent" and I had done "moderately well" with a "good" application, nothing really stood out to place me in the top cohort. I had also done extremely little in the way of preparation or engagement within the realm of Law, so I hope that the second time around I can achieve success. You mentioned programs of support for state school students, if they are relevant I would be interested in those as well.

Once again thanks for the multitudes of information provided thus far. Does your son in particular have any advice, seeing he just got in for Law himself?
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Revathi star
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Hello, I am currently in a dilemma of whether to take the course or not. Is it really worth it? did you take it?
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drodriguez82
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(Original post by Revathi star)
Hello, I am currently in a dilemma of whether to take the course or not. Is it really worth it? did you take it?
Hi, I am also curious. Did you take it?
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(Original post by drodriguez82)
Hi, I am also curious. Did you take it?
I did.
I haven't found it very worthful yet but we have been told that there are many day seminars and etc coming up. Take my comment into account according to my uni offers though.
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