This talk about the NHS? Labour and Tories Watch

Capitalism<3
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People tend to like Labour because of the NHS.
However, the NHS could have its spending tripled and people who still complain it is not enough. The main two problems are there are so much waste and it can't be criticised, it nearly as bad as Muslims and Muhammad. Which means cutting bureaucrats who drink tea and have meetings about meetings can be held to account.

Side note, please don't think I am a fan of the Tories, the Tories are fake conservatives, who want to teach 4 year olds about transgenderism, support feminism, don't care about crime or the nuclear family.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Capitalism<3)
People tend to like Labour because of the NHS.
However, the NHS could have its spending tripled and people who still complain it is not enough. The main two problems are there are so much waste and it can't be criticised, it nearly as bad as Muslims and Muhammad. Which means cutting bureaucrats who drink tea and have meetings about meetings can be held to account.

Side note, please don't think I am a fan of the Tories, the Tories are fake conservatives, who want to teach 4 year olds about transgenderism, support feminism, don't care about crime or the nuclear family.
This is silly, but I think you are a troll
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awaiskhanay18
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(Original post by Capitalism&lt;3)
People tend to like Labour because of the NHS.
However, the NHS could have its spending tripled and people who still complain it is not enough. The main two problems are there are so much waste and it can't be criticised, it nearly as bad as Muslims and Muhammad. Which means cutting bureaucrats who drink tea and have meetings about meetings can be held to account.

Side note, please don't think I am a fan of the Tories, the Tories are fake conservatives, who want to teach 4 year olds about transgenderism, support feminism, don't care about crime or the nuclear family.
has one sociology lesson...
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ByEeek
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(Original post by awaiskhanay18)
has one sociology lesson...
For decades now politicians have been complaining about waste in the NHS yet repeated attempts to reduce this mythical waste have failed. However when you compare outcome to cost per head of population you find that the NHS is one of the best value services. Compared to the US we are about three times cheaper and everyone is covered.
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BeetRoots
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(Original post by Capitalism&lt;3)
People tend to like Labour because of the NHS.
However, the NHS could have its spending tripled and people who still complain it is not enough. The main two problems are there are so much waste and it can't be criticised, it nearly as bad as Muslims and Muhammad. Which means cutting bureaucrats who drink tea and have meetings about meetings can be held to account.

Side note, please don't think I am a fan of the Tories, the Tories are fake conservatives, who want to teach 4 year olds about transgenderism, support feminism, don't care about crime or the nuclear family.
You've done an excellent job there of sounding like a one-dimensional right-wing troll. Well done.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
For decades now politicians have been complaining about waste in the NHS yet repeated attempts to reduce this mythical waste have failed. However when you compare outcome to cost per head of population you find that the NHS is one of the best value services. Compared to the US we are about three times cheaper and everyone is covered.
I agree with you. However i think there are some issues with the NHS:

1. Waste of money in some areas. For example, there was big news where the NHS was spending millions of pounds on medicines that could be cheaply gotten over the counter such as painkillers that cost about £8.99 for the NHS but 40p at high street stores.

2. There is an abuse of the system where people are taking advantage of the system and ruining the system for those who are truly unwell. We have this with people who put pressure on A&E departments after a drink-filled night on Friday and Saturday.

3. We have managers rather than medical experts in charge of hospitals, which leads to improper management of scare resources.

I agree the NHS is great and very important, but we are nowhere near where we can be with a sustainable and efficient system.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Capitalism<3)
People tend to like Labour because of the NHS.
However, the NHS could have its spending tripled and people who still complain it is not enough. The main two problems are there are so much waste and it can't be criticised, it nearly as bad as Muslims and Muhammad. Which means cutting bureaucrats who drink tea and have meetings about meetings can be held to account.

Side note, please don't think I am a fan of the Tories, the Tories are fake conservatives, who want to teach 4 year olds about transgenderism, support feminism, don't care about crime or the nuclear family.
Has your theory of tripling spending being tested or did you just make it up?
Do you think the NHS could run without administrators?
Why have the tories failed to get rid of such waste? Do they need to take you on as a consultant?
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I agree with you. However i think there are some issues with the NHS:

1. Waste of money in some areas. For example, there was big news where the NHS was spending millions of pounds on medicines that could be cheaply gotten over the counter such as painkillers that cost about £8.99 for the NHS but 40p at high street stores.

2. There is an abuse of the system where people are taking advantage of the system and ruining the system for those who are truly unwell. We have this with people who put pressure on A&E departments after a drink-filled night on Friday and Saturday.

3. We have managers rather than medical experts in charge of hospitals, which leads to improper management of scare resources.

I agree the NHS is great and very important, but we are nowhere near where we can be with a sustainable and efficient system.
Agreed. However to 1. Yes I am sure we over pay sometimes, but we also drive a very hard bargin with drugs manufacturers. Why do you the the US want access to the NHS? Because we pay about a third less than the US for our drugs. Well done NHS.

2. Who are these people taking advantage? Is it not tabloid hysteria? What I do know it that the NHS is now having to pick up the shortfall for cuts to mental health and social services.

3. Medical staff need managers. Do you really want to see clinicians doing rotas and holiday forms, organising training and undertaking compliance and regulatory tasks? The idea that management is a waste on resources is a myth. If you want clinical staff to spend their time with patients you need someone to do the admin.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. However to 1. Yes I am sure we over pay sometimes, but we also drive a very hard bargin with drugs manufacturers. Why do you the the US want access to the NHS? Because we pay about a third less than the US for our drugs. Well done NHS.

2. Who are these people taking advantage? Is it not tabloid hysteria? What I do know it that the NHS is now having to pick up the shortfall for cuts to mental health and social services.

3. Medical staff need managers. Do you really want to see clinicians doing rotas and holiday forms, organising training and undertaking compliance and regulatory tasks? The idea that management is a waste on resources is a myth. If you want clinical staff to spend their time with patients you need someone to do the admin.
1. No, that is not true. The US wants access to the NHS because it is a £120 billion industry. With an ageing population, the industry is set to increase its funding. It has nothing to do with cheap drugs. There is even a worry that American interference will increase costs because they would want a return on investment.

2. Again, not true. It is not tabloid hysteria. It is well known that we have people who abuse the system. From the stupid druggy who overdoses and needs emergency care to the professional sickie, who visits the local hospital with the most basic complaints even to the annoyance of staff.

3. Not true. Medical staff are able to run their organisations. The health service is one of the few areas where we bring in non-professionals to run the system. We don't see it in the military or other industries. Interestingly, doctors are viewed as being unable to properly run their hospitals.

Also, when you bring in a non-professional, they make decisions based on business and not medicine. They choose what services and decisions need to be made based on the bottom line and this often affects everyone.

I know about the NHS because I have firsthand experience. I have direct relatives across various levels of the system and their complaints are the same. Even one of my relatives, who is in a high position says that the system under this government ruined many people’s lives both staff and patients.
Last edited by Wired_1800; 1 month ago
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
1. No, that is not true. The US wants access to the NHS because it is a £120 billion industry. With an ageing population, the industry is set to increase its funding. It has nothing to do with cheap drugs. There is even a worry that American interference will increase costs because they would want a return on investment.

2. Again, not true. It is not tabloid hysteria. It is well known that we have people who abuse the system. From the stupid druggy who overdoses and needs emergency care to the professional sickie, who visits the local hospital with the most basic complaints even to the annoyance of staff.

3. Not true. Medical staff are able to run their organisations. The health service is one of the few areas where we bring in non-professionals to run the system. We don't see it in the military or other industries. Interestingly, doctors are viewed as being unable to properly run their hospitals.

Also, when you bring in a non-professional, they make decisions based on business and not medicine. They choose what services and decisions need to be made based on the bottom line and this often affects everyone.

I know about the NHS because I have firsthand experience. I have direct relatives across various levels of the system and their complaints are the same. Even one of my relatives, who is in a high position says that the system under this government ruined many people’s lives both staff and patients.
1. It is true. It was stated many times during Trumps visit. I do however agree with your point.
2. I find it sad that you see a "stupid druggy" as abusing the system. Do you not ever wonder why people turn to drugs? A little compassion goes a long way. There will always be the so called undeserving poor in our society but perhaps those who truly abuse the system are those who manipulate their wealth in order to benefit from the state no?
3. I never said medical staff couldn't manage their world but why should they? Is it really good resource management to have a 20 years experience consultant making staff rotas, approving holiday requests and ordering stationary?
And the military do have support staff. Soldiers don't spend their time ordering supplies or cooking their food when at base.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
1. It is true. It was stated many times during Trumps visit. I do however agree with your point.
2. I find it sad that you see a "stupid druggy" as abusing the system. Do you not ever wonder why people turn to drugs? A little compassion goes a long way. There will always be the so called undeserving poor in our society but perhaps those who truly abuse the system are those who manipulate their wealth in order to benefit from the state no?
3. I never said medical staff couldn't manage their world but why should they? Is it really good resource management to have a 20 years experience consultant making staff rotas, approving holiday requests and ordering stationary?
And the military do have support staff. Soldiers don't spend their time ordering supplies or cooking their food when at base.
1. Again, no. The issue was the backlash that Trump stated that the NHS will be part of a trade deal with the US. The NHS is a cash cow that many countries want to get a slice of. It is not because drugs are cheap.

2. The comment about “stupid druggy” was not about poor people but about drug dealers. I don't take drugs and have zero tolerance to them. Drugs are attractive to many people and people get hooked when they are young.

Those who manipulate their wealth to abuse the tax system should be jailed. I am not defending those people. ALL people who abuse the system whether the health system or the tax system should be jailed.

3. We are not talking about secretaries, PAs or diary assistants. We are talking about hospital managers who run the local hospitals. They are generally the Chief Executive, who make the decisions for the hospitals based on business and not medicine.

You are getting it wrong, the military have support staff but you don't have business managers running the Military. That is left to the Generals and the NHS should be left to the Consultants.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
3. We are not talking about secretaries, PAs or diary assistants. We are talking about hospital managers who run the local hospitals. They are generally the Chief Executive, who make the decisions for the hospitals based on business and not medicine.
Agreed. But given the NHS is paid for by the public purse and is a multi billion pound organisation, I do wonder how you deem a surgeon or specialist cobsultant to be qualified to make such decisions.
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ecolier
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(Original post by ByEeek)
...3. I never said medical staff couldn't manage their world but why should they? Is it really good resource management to have a 20 years experience consultant making staff rotas, approving holiday requests and ordering stationary?....
In many ways, a medical doctor organising staff rotas (for doctors obviously) is much better than medical staffing doing it. Same with holiday requests (where I work, the consultants approve doctors' annual or study leaves and it works perfectly).

At the end of the day, however well trained the managers are, they are not medical and do not understand our struggles day-to-day. I do a lot of admin work because the managers simply can't do a good enough job.

I could rant for hours, but here are a few
(1) clinics under booked so doctors sit around and do nothing / clinics over booked so patients have to wait for hours and we get the stick
(2) clinics not cancelled when doctors book their leave months in advance / clinics cancelled by mistake when the doctors are here
(3) not having adequate cover on the wards
(4) audits that overlap each other but we have to do it because it "ticks the box"
(5) not training enough consultants, but huge competition getting into registrar training...

At all levels in the hospital, at all levels nationally there are things to be done to improve the system. Medics would work better than non-medics in my opinion. Perhaps we can ask senior medics to dedicate half a day a week to help with administration?

Note that senior managers are usually paid much, much more than a consultant (at base salary).

I don't think ordering stationary should be our job.
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nutz99
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. But given the NHS is paid for by the public purse and is a multi billion pound organisation, I do wonder how you deem a surgeon or specialist cobsultant to be qualified to make such decisions.
A nurse would have more idea of the needs of the NHS than say a manager recruited from BT. Simply because you are a senior manager in one organisation does not mean you have the ability to be a senior manager in another. Unfortunately this is rife across most large organisations in the UK.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. But given the NHS is paid for by the public purse and is a multi billion pound organisation, I do wonder how you deem a surgeon or specialist cobsultant to be qualified to make such decisions.
I think because they know how to handle the running of their hospital better than someone dropped in because they have an MBA and have contacts with the local government.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by nutz99)
A nurse would have more idea of the needs of the NHS than say a manager recruited from BT. Simply because you are a senior manager in one organisation does not mean you have the ability to be a senior manager in another. Unfortunately this is rife across most large organisations in the UK.
Absolutely not. A nurse will only experience his or her very limited world e.g their ward or clinic. The chief exec will have a view on the budget of all NHS functions, demand and how best to deliver the care required. At the end of the day there is limited resource to share out. Is a nurse emotionally invested into the front line really in the best place to say "I'm afraid we just can't afford to offer that treatment?"
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I think because they know how to handle the running of their hospital better than someone dropped in because they have an MBA and have contacts with the local government.
I think you are allowing tabloid hysteria to influence your views. My mate is on the board of a large NHS trust in the north and the folks he works with are sh1t hot. Doctors and nurses are fab at treating sick patients. Running and administering a hospital is a completely different skill set. And yes, an MBA helps because whether you like it or not, hospitals are more akin to businesses.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I think you are allowing tabloid hysteria to influence your views. My mate is on the board of a large NHS trust in the north and the folks he works with are sh1t hot. Doctors and nurses are fab at treating sick patients. Running and administering a hospital is a completely different skill set. And yes, an MBA helps because whether you like it or not, hospitals are more akin to businesses.
Having one mate does not mean anything. I have more experience with more people in the system. We have already seen here from people in the system telling you that it does not work.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Having one mate does not mean anything. I have more experience with more people in the system. We have already seen here from people in the system telling you that it does not work.
Well it kind of does work because people get treatment given the tiny amount of tax we each pay. You certainly couldn't get cheaper on the private sector.

But are you really telling me that a single practitioner is better placed to put in strategies for the whole NHS than someone who has worked in that firld their whole career?

But regardless, getting rid of senior manage8in the NHS won't solve anything. Nor would appointing a nurse as the chief exec.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Well it kind of does work because people get treatment given the tiny amount of tax we each pay. You certainly couldn't get cheaper on the private sector.

But are you really telling me that a single practitioner is better placed to put in strategies for the whole NHS than someone who has worked in that firld their whole career?

But regardless, getting rid of senior manage8in the NHS won't solve anything. Nor would appointing a nurse as the chief exec.
No it does not work, that is that point. Many people both patients and medical staff have complained about the shambles since the introduction of business managers. Even the Government’s own KPIs are being missed by the managers they put in to improve the system because they felt consultants are unable to run the system.

You have to appoint someone who understands the system and can make the right calls. You should not appoint someone alien to the field to make decisions esp those that involve life or death implications. Many medical practitioners have voiced their concern on so-called “managers” not running the system properly because they are interested more in money than patients.

Like I said before, the NHS is one of the few industries where non-specialists are put in charge of the system.
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