I like Rory Stewart! Watch

Burton Bridge
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#21
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#21
(Original post by ByEeek)
To be fair, Rory is the only candidate staring the obvious facts in the face i.e. there is only one deal and it can only happen if parliament passes it.

Boris seems Corbyesk in his vagueness.
Agree on borris, I don't trust him to leave no deal on 31st and I'm bemused as too why so many people seem too 100%. I just don't like the way borris is being attacked unfairly and in some cases nasty.

On Rory he's playing a game lets be honest, a tory supportive of socialist services and taxes and a Brexiteer who has one policy to get May's deal over the line in MV4! It's laughable when you think about it
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nulli tertius
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#22
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Well, I think the borris camp has so much support they might and probably will fix it so as a Gove is toast!

As for leaving on the 31st October, that's the law currently! It amazes me the ignorance of British people in general. if even one EU leader of another EU country does not agree to an extention we are out, no deal. The world does not revolve around us, the French president was adamant that he would not agree a further extension to the UK. Personally I think he will because I think he'll be pressured because of the EU countries that would suffer if we left without a deal, ie Ireland and Germany.
The fact something is a legal default does not mean it is at all likely and in this case 31 October was merely a compromise can kicking date for the EU without it ever being remotely achievable as an exit date.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
The fact something is a legal default does not mean it is at all likely and in this case 31 October was merely a compromise can kicking date for the EU without it ever being remotely achievable as an exit date.
Now that's just not true, to actively stop Britain leaving the European Union on the 31st of October there has to be action taken by several powerful people. If that action does not happen we leave.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Now that's just not true, to actively stop Britain leaving the European Union on the 31st of October there has to be action taken by several powerful people. If that action does not happen we leave.
There are a number of different levels here.

Politically, the heads of government of countries where there are significant numbers of citizens who would lose out from a "no deal" Brexit have to be seen to have tried and failed. "Awfully sorry but they hadn't appointed this functionary and that functionary yet, so there was no-one for the British Prime Minister to meet" won't cut the mustard with a French car worker, a Spanish fisherman or a Danish farmer.

That ultimately is the reason 31 October was an artificial date. The can was kicked but not so far that the British were given breathing space. 31 October was a rejection of the alternative strategy of only giving the UK a long extension of a year or two in the hope that Brexit would drift off the political agenda.

If the UK was put in the situation where no extension was forthcoming, I think there is a majority in the Commons to pass legislation compelling a revocation of Article 50. That would be aided because I suspect any serious attempt at "no deal" preparations will be sabotaged by Parliament. May's heart wasn't in them. I suspect the attempt to pass some "no deal" Regulations will be an early test of Boris' true political power. He may find himself impotant if he can't pass Brexit-related statutory instruments.

There is a worrying sign today for Boris. Two MPs spoilt their ballot papers in the leadership election. I think that means two MPs will be resigning the Conservative whip as soon as the contest is over. Once you have folk voting "none of the above" to four candidates, they are on the way to the door.
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the bear
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#25
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i would like to polish Mr Javid's head with a chamois leather.

don't judge me

:emo:

https://www.wntv.uk/wp-content/uploa...ajid-Javid.jpg
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Burton Bridge
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#26
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Times is heavily backing Gove to the point posters on its website are complaining and the Sun is portraying this as a Boris v Gove battle.

We were never leaving on 31 October. The EU calendar for an election year doesn't work for a 31 October departure.

Does Boris have a plan beyond moving his mistress into No 10?

If so, it doesn't look like it is working.

A shambolic grin, a "discovery" of the blindingly obvious and a U-turn requires him to be a lot more popular than he is proving to be in this contest. A Labour switch to a second referendum may make this impossible anyway.

The alternative; a "New Deal" that is completely different to May's deal in everything bar the content requires all the serious players to accept the New Deal and deny any similarity to May's deal.. It doesn't matter if the lunatic fringe; Mogg, Chope etc or the Opposition say the New Deal is no different to the old deal, but I can see Stewart saying "the king has no clothes". That would be fatal.
As I said Gove is toast..... cowards!
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ByEeek
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#27
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Agree on borris, I don't trust him to leave no deal on 31st and I'm bemused as too why so many people seem too 100%. I just don't like the way borris is being attacked unfairly and in some cases nasty.
Well Boris may well not leave on the 31st because a) he understands the calamity of what doing so will cause and b) he would likely see and lose a vote of no confidence by parliament in a bid to leave with no deal.

Boris is attacked because he is divisive. He says what people want to hear. I don't believe he has much conviction and he certainly doesn't have humility, empathy or any form of human to human traits or understanding. It is all about Boris and that is where it starts and stops. It isn't about you and I or the country - just what is in the selfish interests of Boris. I predict he won't achieve much simply because he is unable to charm the support he needs. He is a divider, not a uniter. RIght now, the country needs someone who can unite us.
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Smack
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#28
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#28
(Original post by ByEeek)
RIght now, the country needs someone who can unite us.
But do we really want to be united? Three years after the referendum and I've not seen any evidence of positions shifting. Uniting the country is more of a soundbite from politicians than something that is practicably achievable.
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Fullofsurprises
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#29
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Does Boris have a plan beyond moving his mistress into No 10?
This. Also, where are all the zillions of kids going to hang? He'll need the whole of Downing St.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Smack)
But do we really want to be united? Three years after the referendum and I've not seen any evidence of positions shifting. Uniting the country is more of a soundbite from politicians than something that is practicably achievable.
Of course. The opposite is civil war. Do you want that? Do you want people fighting in the streets?
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paul514
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Of course. The opposite is civil war. Do you want that? Do you want people fighting in the streets?
I’d love to know how you unite people half of which want to leave the customs union, ECJ and single market and the other half who don’t.

Of course it’s a sound bite one side (which should be the losers) has to accept that it’s going to or has happened if/when it’s done.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by paul514)
I’d love to know how you unite people half of which want to leave the customs union, ECJ and single market and the other half who don’t.

Of course it’s a sound bite one side (which should be the losers) has to accept that it’s going to or has happened if/when it’s done.
We leave, the majority of the remainers are simply scared of change/unknown as opposed to any real passion for European Union membership. As soon as we leave and the earth does not spontaneously combust, we will start the unification process!
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L i b
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(Original post by paul514)
I’d love to know how you unite people half of which want to leave the customs union, ECJ and single market and the other half who don’t.

Of course it’s a sound bite one side (which should be the losers) has to accept that it’s going to or has happened if/when it’s done.
Most people aren't really attached to institutions, but use them as totems of wider concerns. It's about drilling down to those concerns. The customs union, for instance - is the real issue about Britain's economy and our ability to trade with our neighbours? Then you provide reassurances on that basis. Is the longing for the ECJ (... and I can't say I've heard a lot of that!) really about assuring a fair and independent tribunal able to regulate a future trade agreement? Because there are other ways to do that too, as we can see from Switzerland, the EEA countries and other trade agreements.
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Smack
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Of course. The opposite is civil war. Do you want that? Do you want people fighting in the streets?
Eh ... that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that I haven't seen any evidence of shifts of Leave-Remain opinion amongst the public, and don't see how a politician can "unite" us.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Smack)
Eh ... that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that I haven't seen any evidence of shifts of Leave-Remain opinion amongst the public, and don't see how a politician can "unite" us.
You are correct they can't directly, after Brexit the unification will come naturally when all see its not as bad/not as good as its feared/hoped for.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by paul514)
I’d love to know how you unite people half of which want to leave the customs union, ECJ and single market and the other half who don’t.

Of course it’s a sound bite one side (which should be the losers) has to accept that it’s going to or has happened if/when it’s done.
You stop banging on about how best to torch the country and instead look at fixing the great institutions of our country that are on their knees e.g. education, NHS and justice.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Smack)
Eh ... that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that I haven't seen any evidence of shifts of Leave-Remain opinion amongst the public, and don't see how a politician can "unite" us.
There is more to our country than Brexit.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by ByEeek)
You stop banging on about how best to torch the country and instead look at fixing the great institutions of our country that are on their knees e.g. education, NHS and justice.
Who is talking about setting a torch to the country?

The status quo needs to change, if you want change.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The status quo needs to change, if you want change.
Agreed. But throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the sort of change I think we want to see.

What we need to understand is that the sort of change I think you are looking for simply doesn't exist and never has. But similarly, things change massively all the time. For example we have changed beyond recognition in the last 20 years both in wealth and attitude. Everyone is always baying for change forgetting that it happens all the time and no amount of change will satisfy everyone. Hard Brexit will be bad for all but yjose elites who have bet big on disaster. Yet you continue to beg for poverty. Bizarre.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. But throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the sort of change I think we want to see.

What we need to understand is that the sort of change I think you are looking for simply doesn't exist and never has. But similarly, things change massively all the time. For example we have changed beyond recognition in the last 20 years both in wealth and attitude. Everyone is always baying for change forgetting that it happens all the time and no amount of change will satisfy everyone. Hard Brexit will be bad for all but yjose elites who have bet big on disaster. Yet you continue to beg for poverty. Bizarre.
Not at all, firstly in the last 20 years money has got tighter for working people while the elites have got much more excess. Example 20 years ago it was an occasion to see a supercar, now I pass one almost every day! But people in poverty is growing hugely, another example workimg conditions are much worse than 20 years ago.

I'm not begging for poverty. Interesting you say it will be OK for the elites, it's the elites who own the companies that we are supposed to be killing off, according to the doom mongers if we leave. Wjy do you think they will be OK?
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