Brexit or Remain? Watch

rimstone
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#21
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#21
(Original post by ColinDent)
Almost 4 years? You mean just under 3 surely!
mate someone 2 post above you said that .... and yes were 1-2 days off a full 3 now( all i remembered was it was the yr i went into uni and im going into my 4th yr now ) , and heading to ''almost'' 4, which is what i meant... the point stand/ and the bigger point being that if you dont have a formed view on brexit at the point, of it being EVERYWHERE and being talked of non stop, you clearly dont care about politices or are a melon. debate seems worthless , since the amount of debated/info out there is huge enough, and its the same talking points/questions and answers, or lack of. save everyone time retyping thing and having to reform arguments, and go to the ton of talk on brexit, on multiple places; its not like anything major happened with in the last year anyways or better said 3 years. ( also no one changes their mind over a debate on a forum )
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ColinDent
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#22
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(Original post by rimstone)
mate someone 2 post above you said that .... and yes were 1-2 days off a full 3 now( all i remembered was it was the yr i went into uni and im going into my 4th yr now ) , and heading to ''almost'' 4, which is what i meant... the point stand/ and the bigger point being that if you dont have a formed view on brexit at the point, of it being EVERYWHERE and being talked of non stop, you clearly dont care about politices or are a melon. debate seems worthless , since the amount of debated/info out there is huge enough, and its the same talking points/questions and answers, or lack of. save everyone time retyping thing and having to reform arguments, and go to the ton of talk on brexit, on multiple places; its not like anything major happened with in the last year anyways or better said 3 years. ( also no one changes their mind over a debate on a forum )
Oops missed that comment, my apologies.
But yes the vast majority have very entrenched views on brexit, the point remains though that parliament is not proportionately representative of the country's views and is trying to shun the idea of actually leaving the EU.
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HarryOnTap
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#23
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So you're a remainer? Tell me why you want to stay in the EU.

Can you see any reason why people would want to leave? Get your argument skills out boy.

#TwoSidesToEveryStory #You'reViewIsImportantToUs
(Original post by winterscoming)
What particular treatment are you referring to?

The EU has lived up to all of its obligations, done everything that it said it would do before the process started, and hasn't treated the UK any differently to the way it did before. On the other hand, the UK Govt spent most of its time dithering, infighting and arguing amongst itself. But aside from that, the entire situation is all of the UK's own doing; the UK asked for it, therefore it's the UK's responsibility to find a solution which is acceptable to the EU.

The EU made it clear from the very beginning that it's not possible for the UK to get a 'better deal' or have 'cake and eat it' -- those were just fantasies conjured by people like Boris Johnson, but those fantasies had no grounding in reality.

The EU has also held up its obligations to Ireland on the Irish border and the N.I. Peace process, and it has given the UK every possible opportunity to come up with a better plan, but when questioned on the specifics on exactly how it would work, nobody has a viable solution.


The implications of ending those deals without having a suitable replacement (WTO rules are not a suitable replacement for all sorts of reasons) is major long-lasting disruption to hundreds of thousands of businesses, massive amounts of extra bureaucracy, huge tariffs, trade barriers, and potentially decades of uncertainty while the mess is cleaned up.

All of which means a huge amount of damage to the UK economy, of whom those worst hit will be the younger generations for whom the impact is going to be on things like the ability to find a well-paid job or afford a mortgage.


The problem is simply that nobody so far has managed to come up with a better alternative plan or deal which allows this to happen. Certainly not the people who campaigned for it to happen, nor the people who have been put in charge of making it happen.

The past 3 years have yielded nothing whatsoever even remotely resembling a coherent or workable alternative, except for those which objectively leave the UK in a much weaker position than it is right now; i.e. arrangements similar to many other 3rd countries which the EU has agreements with, such as those 3rd-countries being required to adopt EU rules without having a say in them.

Staying makes logical sense when there's no viable alternative, and the other options all put the UK at a disadvantage compared to its current position.

But beyond that, trade deals always involve both sides needing to compromise and accept laws and standards which are less-than-idea. The UK's membership of the EU is actually a much better arrangement than any other member of the EU, but if the UK were then to attempt to negotiate some other trade deal with the US, it would end up needing to cave into all kinds of US demands instead.


What about UK producers of those technologies? If all of a sudden the UK is buying it much cheaper from China, UK-based manufacturers won't be able to compete, so then you can say goodbye to the renewable energy sector in the UK, which is currently enjoying a huge amount of growth and inward investment for new jobs. But being in the EU means that the UK jobs are protected from China, and that there's 500 million potential customers just on the other side of the English Channel for those technologies.

There's also the issue of whether the cheap chinese imports meet the same standards for things like quality and safety, and other ethical issues such as whether the workers are being exploited in a country with a poor record on human rights.


British people hold different values to each other as well. Nationality makes no real difference to somebody's values. Peoples values depend a lot on things like their job, marital status, whether they have children, their religion, etc.

A married professional couple who live and work professional jobs in the centre of London has far more values in common with another married professional couple living in Paris or Berlin compared with a Farmer in North Wales, or a single-parent on a council estate in Liverpool.



Each country in the EU is its own independent sovereign nation with full control over its own laws; the EU is focused on matters related to international cooperation and co-operation between its members (Mostly trade), with no influence whatsoever over any domestic policy. In other words, EU rules and regulations have little or no direct impact on the laws which actually affect individuals' day-to-day lives. (e.g. taxation, education, criminal law, policing, healthcare, housing, etc.)

Furthermore, EU members have veto powers so a single EU member can reject any new laws that it strongly disagrees with, or it can reject new trade deals that it doesn't like, or it can reject new members being added to the EU, etc.


So there weren't problems before? I'd recommend you check the history of peace in Europe and look for the last time in history that Europe went more than 70 years without declaring war on itself.


I haven't seen any evidence of this, please could you link your sources? The recent EU elections for the European Parliament delivered a clear majority of seats to Pro-EU parties. Not a single one of the other 27 members has an anti-EU government. Many of those countries have held elections over the past 3 years, all of which have resulted in victories for pro-EU parties and leaders.


The UK IS a laughing stock for pretty much the whole world, not just the EU. The UK used to be known for pragmatism and rational debate, but now it's descended into political chaos and absurdity where facts, logic and reasoning have all flown out of the window.




The EU is still far more beneficial to the UK. The entire scenario is lose-lose on both sides, where the UK has far more to lose given that the EU accounts for almost half of all UK trade.

Then on top of that, there's another 50+ countries which the EU has various trading arrangements and agreements with that it will lose too. It will also lose access to other beneficial projects such as EHIC, Erasmus, Euratom, European Arrest Warrant, EASA, and many other points of co-operation which aren't directly measurable in terms of currency but are still important to the UK economy and peoples' opportunities. Not to mention losing the right for UK citizens to freely live and work anywhere in Europe, as well as losing skilled EU workers who had moved here.


there are no plans for a 'European army'; that's just one of the many myths being spread about the EU.
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BeetRoots
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#24
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The EU is the single biggest trading entity on the planet and we're right on the doorstep of the Continent (we've even got a flippin tunnel). Leaving will hurt the economy for a whole generation at least and there's not going to be any significant upside except for the so-called 'getting our country back'.
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HarryOnTap
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#25
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How will it hurt our economy? In what way? Specifically. Students won't really be affected, tell me how they will. Jobs won't really be affected. The price of our food may increase.
(Original post by BeetRoots)
The EU is the single biggest trading entity on the planet and we're right on the doorstep of the Continent (we've even got a flippin tunnel). Leaving will hurt the economy for a whole generation at least and there's not going to be any significant upside except for the so-called 'getting our country back'.
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AyrshireStudent
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#26
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#26
Brexit, I believe we should be able to self-govern our country and not have our laws influenced by unelected politicians in Brussels.
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Muppetress
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#27
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The only facet of Brexit in which I'm not entirely convinced of leaving is the economic side, and that's only because I haven't done enough research to fully embrace that aspect of it. Otherwise, Brexit makes perfect sense and has so for years. I'd advise you to watch this video questioning Europe's presence in the EU, made way before Brexit was a popular issue like it is today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1rqUs5YlKE
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Burton Bridge
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#28
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#28
The European Union is too bigger beast to be flawless, the upheaval of leaving no deal will be too big to have no down sides. I'd feel more confident leaving no deal if the tories were not running it, however I don't have much time for the current Labour shadow cabinet!

I said it before a remainer PM Pretending to be a Brexiteer vs a Brexiteer leader of the opposition pretending to be a remainer. And we wonder why we are laughing stock.
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barnetlad
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#29
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#29
I love this country. Too many people are in poverty and this will increase with Brexit, regardless of with or without a deal. I appreciate the social chapter with guarantees on holidays. A lot of people value no roaming charges. Action to reduce the impact of climate change has to be beyond this country.

Voted Remain and would like a second referendum so we can decide the better option instead of the error of 2016.
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the bear
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#30
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#30
the EU = the UK's life support system.

the UK voted to switch it off.

end of story.
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Burton Bridge
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#31
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(Original post by barnetlad)
I love this country. Too many people are in poverty and this will increase with Brexit, regardless of with or without a deal. I appreciate the social chapter with guarantees on holidays. A lot of people value no roaming charges. Action to reduce the impact of climate change has to be beyond this country.

Voted Remain and would like a second referendum so we can decide the better option instead of the error of 2016.
I agree but changing that means changing the status quo, it means removing middle ground right leaning/right wing from UK politics. Not sending billions to Europe, remaining in the EU will not help the people currently suffering.
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IWMTom
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#32
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(Original post by HarryOnTap)
So you're a remainer? Tell me why you want to stay in the EU.

Can you see any reason why people would want to leave? Get your argument skills out boy.

#TwoSidesToEveryStory #You'reViewIsImportantToUs
What a fantastically detailed response to winterscoming's short comment...

Oh wait.. other way around!
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HarryOnTap
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#33
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.... Yeah.
(Original post by IWMTom)
What a fantastically detailed response to winterscoming's short comment...

Oh wait.. other way around!
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clarecassar
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#34
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Well in short, I think we should respect democracy and leave as that’s what we voted to do.
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HarryOnTap
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#35
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We voted for Brexit, that was the will of the people. Remainers can say 'we weren't given enough information', or '2016 was an error'. At the end of the day, the information has always been there. But those who voted for remain now think that if they had another vote, it would be different...After all the scaremongering that is, I'm sure that would have swayed a few million at least.....
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winterscoming
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#36
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(Original post by HarryOnTap)
So you're a remainer? Tell me why you want to stay in the EU.

Can you see any reason why people would want to leave? Get your argument skills out boy.

#TwoSidesToEveryStory #You'reViewIsImportantToUs
I already mentioned some of the reasons in my previous post. The main one being that regardless of whatever anybody may think of the UK's current position as full members of the EU, there's no credible or reliable evidence to support the claims that there would be better alternatives on offer, and so far all of the analysis into the alternatives shows the UK being worse-off than it would be under current terms. This is the UK Treasury report from Nov 2018 on the economic consequences of the various different possible outcomes:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...alysis__1_.pdf
( the BBC have briefly summarised that document here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46366162 )



Reasons People voted Leave:
The reasons that people voted to leave are obviously complex, and people voted for different reasons, but the research into the reasons behind the peoples' voting behaviour indicates that the most important issues were Immigration and Sovereignty: https://fullfact.org/europe/green-pa...d-brexit-vote/

Immigration:
Immigration tends to be an emotive subject whereby people jump to conclusions based on errorneous facts, false assumptions, and fundamental misunderstandings about immigration.
For example:
- People have been incorrectly led to believe that Free Movement means the UK isn't allowed by the EU to control its borders, however this is untrue, and the reality is that the UK is allowed to impose border checks for everybody entering the UK regardless of whether they're an EU citizen: http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a...ins-in-the-eu/
- The UK is also allowed to deport EU migrants who can't get a job after 6 months: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...after-6-months
- The UK can refuse entry or deport to EU Migrants who are believed to pose a sufficiently seriously threat, such as having a violent criminal record: https://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgeb...ing-in-the-uk/
- There are also a lot of myths about EU migrants "leeching" off public services and benefits, however these are also unfounded:
https://infacts.org/mythbusts/migran...king-benefits/
https://infacts.org/mythbusts/eu-mig...ent-drain-nhs/

That's not to say that Immigration isn't a valid reason for wanting to leave, although it is worth pointing out that the latest immigration figures show that EU migration for last year had fallen dramatically down to 74,000, while there were 240,000 non-EU migrants: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46384417
So, even in terms of raw numbers, it looks like having the ability to stop people coming into the country (as is the case with non-EU migrants) makes no difference, and those people are being allowed in anyway. The UK could, if it wanted to, prevent all non-EU migrants from entering the country yet it isn't doing so, which pretty much leaves us in a place where citing immigration as a reason to leave the EU seems like false reasoning.


Sovereignty:
This is the strongest argument for leaving the EU, because it's true that the EU makes a lot of laws related to trade, things that businesses can and cannot do, and foreign policy. However, the reality is that the UK has vetoes in a lot of areas, but more than that, the UK tends to get its own way most of the time anyway: https://infacts.org/mythbusts/uk-isnt-told/

But regardless of whether there are laws which the UK likes or doesn't like, the key thing to remember is that most EU laws have little or no direct impact on individuals living inside the UK, and where they do have a direct impact they're on things like consumer protections, workers' rights, human rights, etc.

But more significantly when it comes to actually looking through the rule book of tens of thousands of EU laws, nearly all of them are actually fairly banal and the net effect of scrapping them would be rather insignificant anyway; there's not really any credible argument to be made that EU laws are actually holding back the UK economy in any way whatsoever -- in fact, they are generally a benefit to UK business since they ensure a fair and level playing field across all 28 countries in areas where the UK economy is strongest such as financial services and banking.

While there are undoubtedly some laws that the UK would prefer to scrap, the cost of doing so is vastly disproportionate to the benefits in being able to do so. The benefits of being able to scrap various laws are questionable, and are likely to make little or no overall difference to the UK economy. However, to be able to scrap those laws, the UK must first sacrifice its privileged access to the single market as a full member of the EU, but suffers massive self-inflicted economic damage as a consequence.

However, even if the UK did have the power to scrap EU laws, UK businesses would still need to follow those rules in order to be eligible to trade with the EU; so you'd essentially end up with UK businesses being bound by those laws anyway. By the way, this already happens with businesses which trade with other countries - for example, UK businesses which want to trade with the US need to conform to US regulations for any goods and services sold over there; but unlike EU regulations, the UK has no influence over US regulations; and so this will be the case with the EU after the UK leaves.

Moreover, since there are so few laws in place that the UK really wants to scrap, it begs the question of why it even matters in the first place, and the answers I've seen sem to suggest people actually care more about "who" makes the laws rather than the laws themselves. This is just an illogical position - as if somehow a law is acceptable if its made in Westminster however the exact same law is unacceptable purely on the basis that it derived from the EU instead. This kind of reasoning tends to lead me to believe that for many people, the dislike of the EU and its laws is more of a religious and ideological position which defies any facts or logic, rather than being a position which can be defended with logical reasoning.


The Economy, Trade, International Cooperation:
The reason that the EU exists really are mostly about trade and collaboration between the 28 member states; most significantly the fact that a business in the UK can sell goods and services directly to the 500 million customers in any of the other 27 countries under exactly the same conditions that it can sell to customers within the UK. Non-EU members don't get the same benefits; even EFTA members who have "full" access to the single market have restrictions.


There are many different aspects of the single market which bring a lot of economic benefits to the UK, with significant portions of the UK economy being heavily reliant upon free trade in Goods and Services as detailed here: https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publi...0-%20Final.pdf

Under 'no deal' the UK would lose all access to the single market, which would create many barriers between UK businesses and its trading partners; the result would affect hundreds of thousands of UK businesses and millions of jobs.

If the UK were to leave with a deal, then the UK could keep 'access' to the single market, however it would lose membership privileges which would have significant effects on some important parts of the UK economy, . In particular "Passporting" rights for UK's services industries is an exclusive privilege only available to full EU member nations (i.e. the ability for UK companies to offer services directly to EU consumers) -- The UK would lose this even if it stayed a member of the Single Market and Customs Union as-per EFTA/Norway.

So even if the UK signs a deal, Service industry businesses would need to physically relocate their EU operations into an EU country to be able to continue to serve their EU customers. This doesn't just include UK businesses, there are many large global/multinational companies whose EU operations are based in the UK and currently paying corporation tax in the UK, so aside from job losses which could reach tens of thousands, the loss to the treasury in terms of corporation tax could reach tens of billions.

Aside from that, there are many EU projects and agencies that benefit the UK (although a future deal would most likely include these at a cost, they'd be lost under 'no deal'): https://www.politico.eu/article/12-b...wants-to-pick/



Remain Vs Other Options and the REAL problems affecting the UK:
So the question really has to be this -- Do people really want to leave the EU so much that they will accept a deal which all the evidence suggests will be worse for the UK than the one that they rejected? If we keep things as they are, we know what we're getting -- we just get to carry on with everything the same as it is now, move on with life. All of the economic arguments in favour of leaving have collapsed, and there seems to be very little in the way of credible or reliable evidence in favour of any of the alternatives.

However, more importantly we should step back and ask the question of how Brexit will actually solve anything. Most people in the UK actually never really cared much about the EU in the first place. The things people care about are those which affect their day-to-day lives like wages, jobs, affordability of housing, access to good quality healthcare, living costs, education, crime, inequality, social care services, transport, etc. The one thing which is absolutely 100% certain is that Brexit is not a solution to any of the problems that affect peoples' daily lives, and by inflicting damage onto the economy it actually gets harder for the UK to solve those problems because the treasury has less money to spend and needs to make cuts which can only make things worse, and may cause interest rates to rise which will make mortgages more expensive and make it harder for people to own a house.


Just on a related note, one of the most vocal outspoken supporters of Brexit was the Daily Mail columnist Peter Oborne. More recently, he has had this to say about the whole thing:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...d-think-again/
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