Poland and Hungary a threat to the EU and Western Values?

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134841422
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So I was reading an interesting article by BBC on liberalism (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48798875) and what struck me as very interesting is the 2 former soviet satellite states, Hungary and Poland have very different core values than Western European countries

Now I have Polish and Hungarian friends, however it's undeniable when compared to my other British and Irish and French and Spanish friends they have very very regressive views- Heck, I'd argue their views are more similar to some of my more conservative Muslim friends than they are to my Western European friends-

this got me thinking, is the EU eagerly accepting these former Soviet satellite states into the EU a good thing?
If the EU hasn't accepted Turkey because of fundamental differences in ideologies (such as LGQT + religious extremism + authoritarian) why have they accepted these Eastern European countries? Their values are fundamentally different from Western Europe's - they are not integrating properly

for example: Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban has specifically said he wants to create an "illiberal state" because he believes authoritarian systems, like those in China and Russia, work better than Western liberal democracies. - Now, I personally have a bias against that man and find him repugnant - but surely even when you objectively look at this statement, you must be disgusted

And also why are these former soviet satellite states forgetting how they were when under the thumb of the Soviet Union? and why are they aligning themselves with Russia, which has given them so little and distancing themselves from the EU which has let them become the countries they are now with billions of dollars of investment in infrastructure and their economies

In simple terms the EU is being stabbed in the back by the same Eastern European countries it has spent decades building up - so why should the EU continue supporting these countries and not just kick them out of the bloc?

Feel free to make any counterpoints, so that I can tell you why you are wrong
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999tigger
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(Original post by 134841422)
So I was reading an interesting article by BBC on liberalism (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48798875) and what struck me as very interesting is the 2 former soviet satellite states, Hungary and Poland have very different core values than Western European countries

Now I have Polish and Hungarian friends, however it's undeniable when compared to my other British and Irish and French and Spanish friends they have very very regressive views- Heck, I'd argue their views are more similar to some of my more conservative Muslim friends than they are to my Western European friends-

this got me thinking, is the EU eagerly accepting these former Soviet satellite states into the EU a good thing?
If the EU hasn't accepted Turkey because of fundamental differences in ideologies (such as LGQT + religious extremism + authoritarian) why have they accepted these Eastern European countries? Their values are fundamentally different from Western Europe's - they are not integrating properly

for example: Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban has specifically said he wants to create an "illiberal state" because he believes authoritarian systems, like those in China and Russia, work better than Western liberal democracies. - Now, I personally have a bias against that man and find him repugnant - but surely even when you objectively look at this statement, you must be disgusted

And also why are these former soviet satellite states forgetting how they were when under the thumb of the Soviet Union? and why are they aligning themselves with Russia, which has given them so little and distancing themselves from the EU which has let them become the countries they are now with billions of dollars of investment in infrastructure and their economies

In simple terms the EU is being stabbed in the back by the same Eastern European countries it has spent decades building up - so why should the EU continue supporting these countries and not just kick them out of the bloc?

Feel free to make any counterpoints, so that I can tell you why you are wrong
UK has strong ties with Poland.
We are leaving in October, so the EU can deal with it.
I tend not to judge a country just by who its leader is. They come and go.
Why are they a threat to the EU?
Why are they a threat to western values?
Are you a muslim?
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Prussianxo
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I mean tbf Northern Ireland isn't very liberal yet they're part of the United Kingdom. I don't think the EU actually cares about whether Easterm European nations such as Poland are liberal or their actual values in general. I'm not the most clued up on Turkey and the EU's relationship but it's probably due to another reason. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was because it's a "Muslim" country.
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134841422
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(Original post by 999tigger)
UK has strong ties with Poland.
We are leaving in October, so the EU can deal with it.
I tend not to judge a country just by who its leader is. They come and go.
Why are they a threat to the EU?
Why are they a threat to western values?
Are you a muslim?
1. This isn't about the UK - it's about the EU - since I happen to live in NI near border with RoI, what the EU does is very relevant to me
2. except if you had read the article (like any 'Answer Hero' should) you would know the general populations support these E L E C T E D leaders (search up what elected means after this)
3. If you had read my post you would know why they are a threat - If you have some learning difficulties ask me what you have trouble understanding, as I have explained it very concisely already but will explain it at a level you may better understand if you want
4. I am not actually - And also not sure how that's relevant? It's like me asking you are you Polish or Hungarian or an Eastern European immigrant?, since you seem so defensive and emotional
(Original post by Prussianxo)
I mean tbf Northern Ireland isn't very liberal yet they're part of the United Kingdom. I don't think the EU actually cares about whether Easterm European nations such as Poland are liberal or their actual values in general. I'm not the most clued up on Turkey and the EU's relationship but it's probably due to another reason. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was because it's a "Muslim" country.
socially, yeah not much - but economically they are
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999tigger
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(Original post by 134841422)
1. This isn't about the UK - it's about the EU - since I happen to live in NI near border with RoI, what the EU does is very relevant to me
2. except if you had read the article (like any 'Answer Hero' should) you would know the general populations support these E L E C T E D leaders (search up what elected means after this)
3. If you had read my post you would know why they are a threat - If you have some learning difficulties ask me what you have trouble understanding, as I have explained it very concisely already but will explain it at a level you may better understand if you want
4. I am not actually - And also not sure how that's relevant? It's like me asking you are you Polish or Hungarian or an Eastern European immigrant, since you seem so defensive and emotional?


socially, yeah not much - but economically they are
1. Why is being on the Irish border affected by what Poland does? I dont see how you are affected?
2. Lol at your attempted schooling. You will need to clarify what your concerns are.
3. I did read your posts and no I dont see why they are a threat.
4. I was curious and it is relevant because their immigration policies are things of friction with the EU.

Still not seeing the threat. You seem more interested in attempted insults than explaining.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
1. Why is being on the Irish border affected by what Poland does? I dont see how you are affected?
2. Lol at your attempted schooling. You will need to clarify what your concerns are.
3. I did read your posts and no I dont see why they are a threat.
4. I was curious and it is relevant because their immigration policies are things of friction with the EU.

Still not seeing the threat. You seem more interested in attempted insults than explaining.
why do you think the NI border issue is such a big deal in Brexit? Are you really that thick that you can't see how much people like me living on the border will be affected by what happens in the EU? I'll make it simple for you, right now, 50% of my siblings are working down South, they travel daily across the border and as a consequence are subjected to EU laws and politics when there - If the EU decides Polish and Hungarian ideologies are OK and are what the EU strives to be, it does effect me

different values and ideologies - same reason Turkey isn't allowed in EU
if you can't understand something as simple as that, you're just wasting my time
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999tigger
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(Original post by 134841422)
why do you think the NI border issue is such a big deal in Brexit? Are you really that thick that you can't see how much people like me living on the border will be affected by what happens in the EU? I'll make it simple for you, right now, 50% of my siblings are working down South, they travel daily across the border and as a consequence are subjected to EU laws and politics when there - If the EU decides Polish and Hungarian ideologies are OK and are what the EU strives to be, it does effect me

different values and ideologies - same reason Turkey isn't allowed in EU
if you can't understand something as simple as that, you're just wasting my time
Its only a big deal in Brexit because the Cons are weak and they need to rely on the DUP. The rest of the UK isnt bothered too much about NI, just about the impact of the backstop and wanting to cut ties with the EU . Heh there you go with the insults again.

Is there any evidence that Poland and Hungary are attempting to change the EU charter or that the other 24 are listening?

Even bigger lol at me wasting your time.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Its only a big deal in Brexit because the Cons are weak and they need to rely on the DUP. The rest of the UK isnt bothered too much about NI, just about the impact of the backstop and wanting to cut ties with the EU . Heh there you go with the insults again.

Is there any evidence that Poland and Hungary are attempting to change the EU charter or that the other 24 are listening?

Even bigger lol at me wasting your time.
not sure why you keep deflecting with 'wHy DoEs iT aFfEcT yOu' - if a nuke went off in Saudi Arabia tomorrow it doesn't affect me either, but it doesn't mean I can't talk about it or discuss it

yes actually, I'm glad you brought that up.
where were you last year when the whole debacle of judicial reforms were happening in Poland? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/w...oland-law.html A Key quote from that link: The party has curbed public gatherings, increased control over the news media, undermined the independence of the Civil Service and the prosecutor’s office, and restricted the activities of nongovernmental organizations. - read the entire article then get back to me, this is the same party that won the popular vote in Poland
also where were you when the Hungarian Government took literally any action in the past few years? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...tion-1.3827401

I could post a hundred more but I have a thing called a life
also, I gotta say I'm genuinely curious why this pains you so much? maybe you have some eastern European ethnicity? or your parents/grandparents are Eastern European? Because nothing I've said is inflammatory to an objective observer
Last edited by 134841422; 1 year ago
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999tigger
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(Original post by 134841422)
not sure why you keep deflecting with 'wHy DoEs iT aFfEcT yOu' - if a nuke went off in Saudi Arabia tomorrow it doesn't affect me either, but it doesn't mean I can't talk about it or discuss it

yes actually, I'm glad you brought that up.
where were you last year when the whole debacle of judicial reforms were happening in Poland? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/w...oland-law.html A Key quote from that link: The party has curbed public gatherings, increased control over the news media, undermined the independence of the Civil Service and the prosecutor’s office, and restricted the activities of nongovernmental organizations. - read the entire article then get back to me, this is the same party that won the popular vote in Poland
also where were you when the Hungarian Government took literally any action in the past few years? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...tion-1.3827401

I could post a hundred more but I have a thing called a life
also, I gotta say I'm genuinely curious why this pains you so much? maybe you have some eastern European ethnicity? or your parents/grandparents are Eastern European? Because nothing I've said is inflammatory to an objective observer
1. Because you were going on how it did affect you.
2. You sound hysterical. the EU has a charter, Poland et al can comply with that charter or they can leave.
3. That would mean they cease to benefit from EU money., So nope im not worried that what happens in Poland will bring about the downfall of the EU nor will it affect the fundamental values of the EU.
4. It will be up to the rest of the EU to bring them in line if they are not following the rules.

Anyway will leave you to chat to all the other eager responders on your thread. Have fun.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
1. Because you were going on how it did affect you.
2. You sound hysterical. the EU has a charter, Poland et al can comply with that charter or they can leave.
3. That would mean they cease to benefit from EU money., So nope im not worried that what happens in Poland will bring about the downfall of the EU nor will it affect the fundamental values of the EU.
4. It will be up to the rest of the EU to bring them in line if they are not following the rules.

Anyway will leave you to chat to all the other eager responders on your thread. Have fun.
now was that so hard? your opinion isn't gold, I shouldn't have to drag it out of you

and yes, I agree - the EU should kick them to the curb; that was the whole point of this thread, to discuss if they should or shouldn't (which you still haven't clearly agreed or disagreed with)
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It's****ingWOODY
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(Original post by 134841422)
why do you think the NI border issue is such a big deal in Brexit? Are you really that thick that you can't see how much people like me living on the border will be affected by what happens in the EU? I'll make it simple for you, right now, 50% of my siblings are working down South, they travel daily across the border and as a consequence are subjected to EU laws and politics when there - If the EU decides Polish and Hungarian ideologies are OK and are what the EU strives to be, it does effect me

different values and ideologies - same reason Turkey isn't allowed in EU
if you can't understand something as simple as that, you're just wasting my time
Just to chip in for a sec with a piece of advice - using insults as a focal point of your argument makes you look like a moron.

As you were.
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134841422
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(Original post by It's****ingWOODY)
Just to chip in for a sec with a piece of advice - using insults as a focal point of your argument makes you look like a moron.

As you were.
I'm fine with that
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999tigger
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(Original post by 134841422)
now was that so hard? your opinion isn't gold, I shouldn't have to drag it out of you

and yes, I agree - the EU should kick them to the curb; that was the whole point of this thread, to discuss if they should or shouldn't (which you still haven't clearly agreed or disagreed with)
I didnt say they should kick them out I said there are mechanisms in place which they can use to discipline another member state who does not comply with its membership obligations.

Do I agree with you that they are a threat? No.
Do I think it will affect the UK? No.
Do I think it will affect The Republic? No.

The whole point of your thread was your belief that they are a threat to western values that is somehow going to collapse the EU.
As the UK is leaving them am less concerned about whether the EU remains as a going concern or not, but I dont see Poland and Hungary being influential enough to override the Germans or French, so if I was remaining in the EU I wouldnt be bothered either. Just rather bemused how you can feel so threatened. Anyway own it and enjoy it, seems very exciting.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
I didnt say they should kick them out I said there are mechanisms in place which they can use to discipline another member state who does not comply with its membership obligations.

Do I agree with you that they are a threat? No.
Do I think it will affect the UK? No.
Do I think it will affect The Republic? No.

The whole point of your thread was your belief that they are a threat to western values that is somehow going to collapse the EU.
As the UK is leaving them am less concerned about whether the EU remains as a going concern or not, but I dont see Poland and Hungary being influential enough to override the Germans or French, so if I was remaining in the EU I wouldnt be bothered either. Just rather bemused how you can feel so threatened. Anyway own it and enjoy it, seems very exciting.
well done for finally expressing yourself, and it only took you 5 replies

and don't be ridiculous, the EU is waaay too strong to simply collapse because a few former Soviet satellite states rebel - I'm aware that the EU has measures it can take to discipline them, but that wasn't what my post was about - it was about the more fundamental threat these countries pose; Like a Trojan Horse they sneak into the EU and attack its values from within and hence the whole point of this post, it wasn't about discipline, it wasn't about populism, it was about whether these countries should be in the EU in the first place, simple as that
You don't need to discipline a member if they're not a member, disciplining only gets you so far if the population itself is corrupted
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999tigger
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(Original post by 134841422)
well done for finally expressing yourself, and it only took you 5 replies

and don't be ridiculous, the EU is waaay too strong to simply collapse because a few former Soviet satellite states rebel - I'm aware that the EU has measures it can take to discipline them, but that wasn't what my post was about - it was about the more fundamental threat these countries pose; Like a Trojan Horse they sneak into the EU and attack its values from within and hence the whole point of this post, it wasn't about discipline, it wasn't about populism, it was about whether these countries should be in the EU in the first place, simple as that
You don't need to discipline a member if they're not a member, disciplining only gets you so far if the population itself is corrupted
They are in, so you have to deal with it.
I was waiting for you to make a clear argument and some credible points. I dont believe you have.
You are the one who its taken multiple responses to actually state your case and only because I have prompted you there.

I dont see them as a funadmental threat but you carry on with the drama. They would be brought into line a long time before that and you are being rather naive about it. Even if we were staying I wouldnt have a problem with them being in, they can adjust. No substantive threat.
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134841422
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(Original post by 999tigger)
they can adjust. No substantive threat.
just like the millions of refugees the EU states recently took in?

you're deflecting a lot - are you sure you're not a Pole?
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999tigger
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(Original post by 134841422)
just like the millions of refugees the EU states recently took in?

you're deflecting a lot - are you sure you're not a Pole?
I was talking about the Poles and Hungarians doing the adjusting.

Feel free to explain what your issue is with refugees?

What am I supposedly deflecting? I remain objective despite your insults.

You have to ask clear and meaningful questions if you want an answer. As it is I remain bemused at your line of reasoning, which dont deserve to be taken seriously. I still dont feel threatened by whats going on in Hungary and Poland as I dont expect it to last. It will be resolved within Poland/ Hungary or by the EU if they feel the charter is being broken. Meanwhile the UK will have left.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
I was talking about the Poles and Hungarians doing the adjusting.

Feel free to explain what your issue is with refugees?

What am I supposedly deflecting? I remain objective despite your insults.

You have to ask clear and meaningful questions if you want an answer. As it is I remain bemused at your line of reasoning, which dont deserve to be taken seriously. I still dont feel threatened by whats going on in Hungary and Poland as I dont expect it to last. It will be resolved within Poland/ Hungary or by the EU if they feel the charter is being broken. Meanwhile the UK will have left.
I personally don't have any issues with poles, hungarians, refugees - heck even with polish and hungarian refugees
the argument was about difference in ideologies - which i have made clear from the very beginning (and continue to do so each time you ask the same question) - differences which has cost many, many wars and lives particularly this last century

I think you're deflecting because you have some skin in this - I don't know what it is for sure, but you seem to be taking a very harmless discussion, very, very personally

also the fact that you don't think fundamental differences in ideologies is going to last, is incredibly naive - you are looking at the symptom, not the cause
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Sabertooth
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"Are you sure you're not a Pole?"

Pretty racist right there buddy.
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134841422
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(Original post by Sabertooth)
"Are you sure you're not a Pole?"

Pretty racist right there buddy.
asking ethnicity is racist?
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