The Student Room Group

Scroll to see replies

Reply 20
ricman3
The markscheme is wrong. If the current goes upwards at the top the hub is positive and the rim negative.


the markscheme is right
discombob
The problem is that I used the right hand rule and the markscheme did not concur! :s-smilie:


Exactly, me too, which is why you should use the left hand rule (however wrong it may be) to get the right answer.
But it is only 1mark and you have a 50% chance of getting it right if you don't have a clue what you're doing lol.
Reply 23
LethalBizzle
Exactly, me too, which is why you should use the left hand rule (however wrong it may be) to get the right answer.


Haha easy to say that now that we've had a long hard look at the markscheme, but what about in the exam :p:
Reply 24
discombob
Haha how on earth did you manage that? You must be good at hand gymnastics.


:confused: what fingers represent what?
Reply 25
scottnoplot
But it is only 1mark and you have a 50% chance of getting it right if you don't have a clue what you're doing lol.


I wish, but I need an A and I'm sitting on 83% UMS right now...every mark counts :frown:
Reply 26
nexttime
:confused: what fingers represent what?


Thumb is the motion, Index finger is the field, Second finger is the direction of the induced conventional current. (for both left and right hand rules)
Reply 27
Right hand rule deal with conventional current. This is the current that the world of physics uses because some victorians guessed wrong - the actual flow of electrons is opposite to the conventional current. So yes, the hub is negative and the rims is positive.
Reply 28
everyone subsribe to this thread:

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=601642

Just so that everyones in the same thread when we talk about how good.......... or bad :s-smilie: .. PHY5 went.
Reply 29
discombob
Thumb is the motion, Index finger is the field, Second finger is the direction of the induced conventional current. (for both left and right hand rules)


so, on the right hand at the top, index finger pointing into the page, thub goiing right, middle finger is upwards, so electrons go downwards, hub is negative.

what am i doing wrong? :confused:
Reply 30
Formica
Right hand rule deal with conventional current. This is the current that the world of physics uses because some victorians guessed wrong - the actual flow of electrons is opposite to the conventional current. So yes, the hub is negative and the rims is positive.


Okay so e.m.f. refers to the opposite charges on the electrodes, compared to conventional current?
Reply 31
nexttime
so, on the right hand at the top, index finger pointing into the page, thub goiing right, middle finger is upwards, so electrons go downwards, hub is negative.

what am i doing wrong? :confused:


If the current is up, current is defined as the movement of positive charges. Therefore it must be away from positive and towards negative right? So wouldn't a current moving upwards suggest that the hub is positive and the rim is negative?
I think your explanation would be right if the circuit was not closed, and an accumulating charge forms on the hub, but it says that a constant emf is generated, implying a closed circuit?
I think I understand it now.

Take an electron on the spoke at the top. When this is pushed to the right, it moves right, so current is to the left. Field acts into the page. If you use the right hand rule here, you will find the thrust of the electron is upwards, so induced current acts downwards. I think that might be what they are after.
Reply 33
discombob
If the current is up, current is defined as the movement of positive charges. Therefore it must be away from positive and towards negative right? So wouldn't a current moving upwards suggest that the hub is positive and the rim is negative?
I think your explanation would be right if the circuit was not closed, and an accumulating charge forms on the hub, but it says that a constant emf is generated, implying a closed circuit?


?? no, if current is up, movement of electrons is down. the emf is caused by this movement of electrons, the electrons are not responding to an emf that is already present.

as you said, current is movement of positive sharges. current is up, so the top is positive.
Reply 34
nexttime
?? no, if current is up, movement of electrons is down. the emf is caused by this movement of electrons, the electrons are not responding to an emf that is already present.

as you said, current is movement of positive sharges. current is up, so the top is positive.


Okay, I see what you mean. Negative charges accumulate at the hub, since positive charges cannot move and electron movement is opposite to current. THANKS :biggrin:. My goodness, that took a while to clear up :redface:
Reply 35
discombob
Okay, I see what you mean. Negative charges accumulate at the hub, since positive charges cannot move and electron movement is opposite to current. THANKS :biggrin:. My goodness, that took a while to clear up :redface:


i thought i had got the whole left hand/right hand thing wrong lol. As long as that's cleared up then.
Reply 36
discombob
Okay so e.m.f. refers to the opposite charges on the electrodes, compared to conventional current?


Conventional e.m.f. is consistent with conventional current. The actual electron movement is in the opposite direction, as is the direction of the internal electric field caused by the movement.
Reply 37
Formica
Conventional e.m.f. is consistent with conventional current. The actual electron movement is in the opposite direction, as is the direction of the internal electric field caused by the movement.


Alright, thanks :smile: Got it all cleared up now haha.
Reply 38
Electrons go from negative to positive...so hub is positive.
The use of Fleming’s Right Hand Rule to deduce the direction of the induced
current was the essential initial step towards the first mark here, but by asking for
the resulting polarity the question was made far more searching. It was clear from
the additional labelling of current directions on a few scripts that most candidates
believe that current flows from the positive terminal to the negative one within a
supply, rather than in the opposite sense. This is a subtle, counter-intuitive point
that centres could usefully emphasise.

Examiner's report on this question, may clear it up a little.

Latest