No Outsiders programme restarts at Birmingham school. Watch

Professional G
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(Original post by Charzhino)
Watching shows like trans primary kids; I disagree. Boys and girls have had no problem attending traditional primary schools for over a century, introducing concepts and rhetoric like "girls can be boys in girl bodies" (something along these lines was shown in the educational leaflets of this Birmingham school) is messing with established schooling unnecessarily .
I don’t know any shows that feature trans characters aimed at kids. Even though, they never even mention trans. You mean the same leaflets that were confirmed to be fake and altered by parents...
Schools have been teaching this lessons for years. I remember being taught to respect people nearly 14 years ago, so why would it be different this time?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-47910695
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AperfectBalance
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Ah the madness continues, I dread having to put my kids in a school later in life.
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Professional G
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Ah the madness continues, I dread having to put my kids in a school later in life.
This kind of paranoia is ridiculous. I dread knowing how your kids will feel if one of them isn’t straight..
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Fuego1
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If it wasnt for abrahamic religions, none of these issues with the no outsiders program would even exist in the first place.
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James2312
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(Original post by Charzhino)
Respectfully disagree. Boys and girls at primary shouldnt be told about this as it may influence them. All these documentaries and statistics about ever increasing number of "trans" kids under 13 is alarming. This wasnt an issue 10+ years ago. Connect the dots
I learned about WW2 and the rise of the Nazis in school.I am yet to invade Poland. Learning about something doesn't = doing it.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by James2312)
I think you will find it's not the teacher who has an "agenda".
You think a man who is selling a book entitled "No Outsiders in Our School: Teaching the Equality Act in Primary Schools" has no agenda?
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BlueIndigoViolet
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Every child should learn that people are different, something these adults have a hard time grasping.

Banning protests and the discouragement of students outside the gates is absolutely necessary, no child/parent should fear going to school because of some religious nutjobs.
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James2312
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
You think a man who is selling a book entitled "No Outsiders in Our School: Teaching the Equality Act in Primary Schools" has no agenda?
I think people who stand outside a primary school protesting because a fictional wizard in the sky told them to,have an agenda.

I also think that if they spent the same amount of time protesting outside say, a divorce solicitors or an abortion clinic,then I might actually believe it was anything other than naked homophobia.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Call me anything)
I think that if you tell children that it isn't just hetrosexuality and try to make a strong progressive point against it, that will confuse them. I personally genuinely believe that this is all just being used to push an LGBT agenda, using children as the pawns. I could easily be wrong here, but I just think that children just don't need to know it yet, and it should left be to parents and carers rather than a board of education to decide.

I think that the world is naturally heteronormative, as most people are heterosexual. I am not trying to other the LGBT society and I understand that they are different, yet I believe that we should still teach the norm rather than going out of our way to educate about an exception. Children will find out about it in their own time in their own way. Female princesses also aren't awarded to the male hero, and I think that when people (mainly Feminists) try to push this point then they are completely disregarding the choice that the princess makes to be with the prince. These are the same kind of people who are complaining that mother's who choose to stay at home and not join the workforce are somehow undermining Feminism.
But how will it confuse children? What exactly have they got to be confused about? You say they don't need to know about it yet, yet there's nothing wrong with them knowing heterosexuality exists?

That paragraph is frankly nonsense, a firm misunderstanding of what feminists argue (choosing to be a stay at home mother isn't undermining feminism, being forced to do so by societal pressures is), and that heterosexuality being treated as something that's fine for kids to know about but non hetero orientations aren't is sexualising LGBTQ people rather than acknowledging that we're just people.

The point I made about him being kicked out was meaning being kicked out of a lesson. I understand that it may be a crime doing what he did, but he documented the reason. Whether what he did was right or not, the fact remains he got kicked out for expressing the wrong opinion. I genuinely wish that schools could go back to a time where teaching was about the battling out of ideas to find the best, rather than the indoctrination of the children because of one ideology.

The 'battling of ideas' sounds quite like this place and these forums, wouldn't you agree?
He wasn't kicked out for "expressing the wrong opinion" though? The teacher came over to have a word with him and said he could be quiet or they could have that conversation outside (in other words, shut up and stop disrupting everyone else's education), and was excluded for filming and publishing that conversation. He was entirely in the wrong.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by James2312)
I think people who stand outside a primary school protesting because a fictional wizard in the sky told them to,have an agenda.

I also think that if they spent the same amount of time protesting outside say, a divorce solicitors or an abortion clinic,then I might actually believe it was anything other than naked homophobia.
I entirely agree with you that the leaders of the mob at the school have an agenda. What that agenda is, I don't have the information to say. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it is homophobia. Remember this is only just down the road from where the Trojan Horse infiltration took place.

The fact that they have an agenda doesn't mean no-one else has.
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James2312
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
I entirely agree with you that the leaders of the mob at the school have an agenda. What that agenda is, I don't have the information to say. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it is homophobia. Remember this is only just down the road from where the Trojan Horse infiltration took place.

The fact that they have an agenda doesn't mean no-one else has.
The schools agenda is to teach the stuff they have to teach by law.i.e doing their jobs.Its hardly jumping to a conclusion is it? What other conclusion would you draw? They've been shouting outside the school for weeks.They've demonstrated their homophobia more than adequately.Just because they use their religion as a veil to hide behind doesn't make them less homophobic.
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Napp
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(Original post by James2312)
It's not really a bold claim.That that can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.It is mainly religious people.Even those who aren't religious are influenced by the fact that until a couple of generations ago this country was strongly Christian.Those Christian values have rubbed off on them.
Saying all religion is wrong is a bold claim..
Mm to a point.
I didn't say all Muslims were homophobic but a lot of them certainly are and Islam certainly is.
Your implication was quite clear. Indeed it is but then again so are plenty of other people and every other major religion - the good book is quite clear on what should happen to those who engage in buggery.
Pretty much all Muslim countries criminalise homosexuality and hardly any tolerate it.
Yes to the first no to the second. I mean that sort of depends on what you mean by 'tolerate' it. Most of them let you get up to whatever you want behind the walls of your own home.
But this isn't about all Muslims it's about those protesters outside the gates.And they like it or not are Muslim.
You cant say this 'isnt about muslims' then say it is... pick one it either is or it isnt. *most, not all.
quote]
Their sole objection is based on the fact that Islam is against it.[/quote]
Now thats equally not true as well you should know.
Why should their wishes to indoctrinate their children be given any credence?
I think you mean not indoctrinate right? But why shouldnt it? The idea of teaching little children thats transsexualism and what not is a perfectly good way to run your life is... questionable, to say the least.
Its not a religious school or a religious country.
I'm not sure how thats relevant?
So what Islam says has no bearing here.
We've been through this, all major religions find the idea of buggery abhorrent. Nevermind the minor ones which find transexualism to be an affront as well. See the Dalai Llamas comments on the matter, for example.
They can say what they like in their homes or the mosque but they can't try to impose their religious values on the school.
I'm beginning to think you're just using this as a stalking horse to bash Muslims. as i have stated, ad-nauseum, there is nothing uniquely Muslim about this.
Never mind the fact you seem to be ignoring that this is a fundamental right of theirs to protest.
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Call me anything
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If you watch the video posted by the boy, even though his recording of the situation was wrong, the teacher says that the view he (the teacher) holds is an 'acceptable' one. Which means the boys opinion wasn't acceptable because he disagreed with what the authority had said. If we just look at the actual clip rather than what led up to it, that is what the teacher said. Which biologically doesn't even make sense as we know there are only 2 genders.

And if children see a load of, or possibly only, heterosexual families but they are being taught that homosexuality is normal, then that would probably confuse them quite a bit. We've already seen things such as 'Desmond is Amazing', and I want to steer clear from that as much as possible. The way people like Desmond is Amazing comes around is through parents pushing their thoughts and ideologies onto their kids. Just slightly aside from this but on the same lines, their are books out now such as 'A is for activist', which I hope shows how certain ideologies are pushing their agendas onto children at very young ages. As I have previously stated I think it is important for children to learn about other ways of life, but I would much prefer it to be done by close friends and family members who the children can have a prolonged talk and discussion with.

Also, Feminists should surely want to have all women in the workforce in general. How else are they meant to close the 'pay gap' which they love to bring up even though it has been proven wrong so many times, or get equal representation in the top FTSE companies, as they also love to complain about how their aren't that many women at the top of businesses. Doesn't being a stay at home mum work against that by meaning that there are less women in the workforce? I do have a question for you on this topic, would you like women to have the freedom to do what they want (equal opportunities) or would you like women to make up 50% of whatever workforce you'd like to target (equal outcomes)? Because you can only have one.
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
But how will it confuse children? What exactly have they got to be confused about? You say they don't need to know about it yet, yet there's nothing wrong with them knowing heterosexuality exists?

That paragraph is frankly nonsense, a firm misunderstanding of what feminists argue (choosing to be a stay at home mother isn't undermining feminism, being forced to do so by societal pressures is), and that heterosexuality being treated as something that's fine for kids to know about but non hetero orientations aren't is sexualising LGBTQ people rather than acknowledging that we're just people.



He wasn't kicked out for "expressing the wrong opinion" though? The teacher came over to have a word with him and said he could be quiet or they could have that conversation outside (in other words, shut up and stop disrupting everyone else's education), and was excluded for filming and publishing that conversation. He was entirely in the wrong.
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James2312
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(Original post by Napp)
Saying all religion is wrong is a bold claim..
Mm to a point.

Your implication was quite clear. Indeed it is but then again so are plenty of other people and every other major religion - the good book is quite clear on what should happen to those who engage in buggery.

Yes to the first no to the second. I mean that sort of depends on what you mean by 'tolerate' it. Most of them let you get up to whatever you want behind the walls of your own home.

You cant say this 'isnt about muslims' then say it is... pick one it either is or it isnt. *most, not all.
quote]
Their sole objection is based on the fact that Islam is against it.
Now thats equally not true as well you should know.

I think you mean not indoctrinate right? But why shouldnt it? The idea of teaching little children thats transsexualism and what not is a perfectly good way to run your life is... questionable, to say the least.

I'm not sure how thats relevant?

We've been through this, all major religions find the idea of buggery abhorrent. Nevermind the minor ones which find transexualism to be an affront as well. See the Dalai Llamas comments on the matter, for example.

I'm beginning to think you're just using this as a stalking horse to bash Muslims. as i have stated, ad-nauseum, there is nothing uniquely Muslim about this.
Never mind the fact you seem to be ignoring that this is a fundamental right of theirs to protest.[/QUOTE]

Why are you bringing other religions into this? There are no crowds of Jews or Hindus protesting outside primary schools that I know of in the UK.When there is I'll argue about that too.The protesters are primarily Muslim.Thats why I mention Islam not because I'm biased against them.Its not racist to point out that those protesters all mainly had one religion.Its not a uniquely Muslim thing but in the video I saw of it he clearly stated that homosexuality went against Islam and that was why he was protesting.

And yes all religion is wrong.This is not a bold claim to make when none of them have a shred of evidence to support them.Indeed Muslims themselves make that claim about thousands of other religions except their own.I simply go one step further.

The problem with religion is that it try's to tell other people how to live their own lives.If someone wants to be gay, I don't really mind because it's not my life.Its their body they can do what they want.Religion is totalitarian in that it tries to impose a strict order on people and any deviation is seen as wrong.Its not wrong to not want kids or to prefer the same sex.Its just a different way of living.Some people can't handle that but it doesn't make being gay wrong.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Call me anything)
If you watch the video posted by the boy, even though his recording of the situation was wrong, the teacher says that the view he (the teacher) holds is an 'acceptable' one. Which means the boys opinion wasn't acceptable because he disagreed with what the authority had said. If we just look at the actual clip rather than what led up to it, that is what the teacher said. Which biologically doesn't even make sense as we know there are only 2 genders.
There aren't only two genders, that's an arbitrary division with little justifiable basis while gender itself is a spectrum (as, I would argue, is sex - all sexually dimorphic traits exist more as a continuation with bimodal distribution rather than discrete categories), but I'm not sure why you're telling me to watch the video - I did, I'm still interested as to why the video conveniently started when the teacher was having a word with the student, and it's really rather obvious that the student was being disruptive (Also hinted by the teacher saying things like "you had a chance to just be quiet"), hence the teacher coming over in the first place. He was a disruptive student that then broke school rules around filming to publicise his crybullying, the opinion he expressed is pretty much irrelevant to the issue.

And if children see a load of, or possibly only, heterosexual families but they are being taught that homosexuality is normal, then that would probably confuse them quite a bit. We've already seen things such as 'Desmond is Amazing', and I want to steer clear from that as much as possible. The way people like Desmond is Amazing comes around is through parents pushing their thoughts and ideologies onto their kids. Just slightly aside from this but on the same lines, their are books out now such as 'A is for activist', which I hope shows how certain ideologies are pushing their agendas onto children at very young ages. As I have previously stated I think it is important for children to learn about other ways of life, but I would much prefer it to be done by close friends and family members who the children can have a prolonged talk and discussion with.
You frankly overestimate the likely responses of children. You teach them that Susan has two mummies or that Bobbie thought he had a mum and dad but actually he has two dad's, and their response will be "cool, can I play on the swings?". Children don't really get phased by these sorts of things until they've been taught bigotry by their family and community, which is all the more reason to teach them that LGBTQ folk are just people like everyone else, so the parents can't teach bigotry and falsehoods.

As for Desmond is Amazing, the kid watched Ru Paul's Drag Race, said "that looks fun" and took it up as a hobby, I really don't see the issue here given drag isn't sexual or anything...

Also, Feminists should surely want to have all women in the workforce in general. How else are they meant to close the 'pay gap' which they love to bring up even though it has been proven wrong so many times, or get equal representation in the top FTSE companies, as they also love to complain about how their aren't that many women at the top of businesses. Doesn't being a stay at home mum work against that by meaning that there are less women in the workforce? I do have a question for you on this topic, would you like women to have the freedom to do what they want (equal opportunities) or would you like women to make up 50% of whatever workforce you'd like to target (equal outcomes)? Because you can only have one.
The pay gap isn't the only feminist issue, nor has it by any stretch of the imagination been proven wrong - the pay gap is a result of a hiring gap and the glass ceiling that feminists have talked about for decades. Feminism is about deconstructing gendered roles, with people then free to do what they want without the oppressive confines of societal gender norms - feminism isn't "women shouldn't stay home" it's "women should be free to make that choice by themselves, rather than forced into it by things like a maternity/paternity leave system that treats child care as a job for the mother, not for all parents".
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Call me anything
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There are only two biological sexes, being defined as "the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics". Of this I am sure you know the sex characteristics and don't need me to spell them out. I understand there is a gender debate and I believe there are only two genders and your sex defines your gender; however I do not know if this is the right forum to debate this on and I will happily join you on another one if you did want to debate that.

About the boy, no matter the actions that led up to the incident with his teacher, the teacher did say that there were more than two genders and that that was the acceptable belief. I think it is very dangerous if we allow schools to decide what we and our children can believe and what is unacceptable. Surely everything that has changed a culture would have been at some point ‘unacceptable’ and had to prove its merit.

If teaching children that two genders exist will only be met with “can I play on the swings”, then why bother telling them at all? We could just let them play on the swings and meet those families there. And to be honest, I don’t think the LGBT community helps itself with some of the things that have been seen at gay pride parades. It isn’t uncommon to see half naked men or people wearing bondage gear at those parades. Personally I believe that you can do whatever the hell you want as long as it follows the law; however I don’t think that it will help them in the long run. If anything it would only alienate people from that community.

Also, you say that Desmond is Amazing isn’t sexual yet I will leave links down below showing some of his acts. Even if you say they aren’t graphically sexual, I think it is fair to say that he is dancing in a sexual manner for his audience.

The pay gap has been debunked by people like Christina Hoff Summers (self-proclaimed feminist) and explained by people such as the brilliant Jordan Peterson. I don’t think that there is anything holding women back and it is simply the choices they make that mean they make less on average than men. By saying there is no gender gap I mean that it isn’t due to sexist people, or that sexism has a very little effect as it is mainly career choice and women choose careers which pay less. Women can’t help being the ones who carry the children, that is just biology and Feminism can’t change that. I don’t think that there is any need for Feminism any more. Women have the exact same rights as men and that is true equality and is where it should stay. Also, I think that we live in a pretty free society as it is, and societal gender norms really don’t negatively affect people that much.

Link for Desmond is Amazing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgq7MNasA9Q

(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
There aren't only two genders, that's an arbitrary division with little justifiable basis while gender itself is a spectrum (as, I would argue, is sex - all sexually dimorphic traits exist more as a continuation with bimodal distribution rather than discrete categories), but I'm not sure why you're telling me to watch the video - I did, I'm still interested as to why the video conveniently started when the teacher was having a word with the student, and it's really rather obvious that the student was being disruptive (Also hinted by the teacher saying things like "you had a chance to just be quiet"), hence the teacher coming over in the first place. He was a disruptive student that then broke school rules around filming to publicise his crybullying, the opinion he expressed is pretty much irrelevant to the issue.



You frankly overestimate the likely responses of children. You teach them that Susan has two mummies or that Bobbie thought he had a mum and dad but actually he has two dad's, and their response will be "cool, can I play on the swings?". Children don't really get phased by these sorts of things until they've been taught bigotry by their family and community, which is all the more reason to teach them that LGBTQ folk are just people like everyone else, so the parents can't teach bigotry and falsehoods.

As for Desmond is Amazing, the kid watched Ru Paul's Drag Race, said "that looks fun" and took it up as a hobby, I really don't see the issue here given drag isn't sexual or anything...



The pay gap isn't the only feminist issue, nor has it by any stretch of the imagination been proven wrong - the pay gap is a result of a hiring gap and the glass ceiling that feminists have talked about for decades. Feminism is about deconstructing gendered roles, with people then free to do what they want without the oppressive confines of societal gender norms - feminism isn't "women shouldn't stay home" it's "women should be free to make that choice by themselves, rather than forced into it by things like a maternity/paternity leave system that treats child care as a job for the mother, not for all parents".
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Call me anything)
There are only two biological sexes, being defined as "the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics". Of this I am sure you know the sex characteristics and don't need me to spell them out. I understand there is a gender debate and I believe there are only two genders and your sex defines your gender; however I do not know if this is the right forum to debate this on and I will happily join you on another one if you did want to debate that.
There are two sexes because that's how they were divided in the past - the classes were made for man, not man for the classes, but the sexes are not discrete categories, they're a bimodal distribution, and can easily by re-categorised (e.g. the valley between the two peaks being considered a third sex rather than a mix of the two).

About the boy, no matter the actions that led up to the incident with his teacher, the teacher did say that there were more than two genders and that that was the acceptable belief. I think it is very dangerous if we allow schools to decide what we and our children can believe and what is unacceptable. Surely everything that has changed a culture would have been at some point ‘unacceptable’ and had to prove its merit.
I'd agree that "there's only two genders" is an inappropriate belief, being inherently transphobic by denying the existence of non-binary folk (I'd also argue it's imperialistic, because the notion of two genders is very much a western Christian one, it's a cultural relative, not an absolute fact), and really bigotry within the classroom shouldn't be acceptable, given it can harm classmates. Doesn't change that the student engaged in crybullying and doesn't deserve sympathy.

If teaching children that two genders exist will only be met with “can I play on the swings”, then why bother telling them at all? We could just let them play on the swings and meet those families there. And to be honest, I don’t think the LGBT community helps itself with some of the things that have been seen at gay pride parades. It isn’t uncommon to see half naked men or people wearing bondage gear at those parades. Personally I believe that you can do whatever the hell you want as long as it follows the law; however I don’t think that it will help them in the long run. If anything it would only alienate people from that community.
You fail to grasp the point - that children aren't confused by the existence of LGBTQ people, they aren't phased by them, the only issue is the bigotry taught by their parents, which is precisely why programs like the no outsiders one is necessary, to beat the parents attempts to indoctrinate their children into hatred.
Also, you say that Desmond is Amazing isn’t sexual yet I will leave links down below showing some of his acts. Even if you say they aren’t graphically sexual, I think it is fair to say that he is dancing in a sexual manner for his audience.
Drag isn't sexual, that you sexualise it is your issue.


The pay gap has been ... explained by people such as the brilliant Jordan Peterson.


Jordan Peterson is the idiots idea of a smart person, he's far from brilliant, the lobster daddy a crank who constantly embarrasses himself by attempting to speak on topics he lacks even cursory knowledge on.

I don’t think that there is anything holding women back and it is simply the choices they make that mean they make less on average than men. By saying there is no gender gap I mean that it isn’t due to sexist people, or that sexism has a very little effect as it is mainly career choice and women choose careers which pay less. Women can’t help being the ones who carry the children, that is just biology and Feminism can’t change that. I don’t think that there is any need for Feminism any more. Women have the exact same rights as men and that is true equality and is where it should stay. Also, I think that we live in a pretty free society as it is, and societal gender norms really don’t negatively affect people that much.
Absolute garbage. Choices don't exist in a vacuum, sexism and gender norms do heavily influence what we do and how we perform - for instance it is possible to make women struggle more with maths by reminding them of that gender stereotype beforehand, it's a well known concept called stereotype threat. And gender norms do harm people who aren't on the oppressor end of that axis (i.e. they harm women, harm GNC people of all genders and trans people of all genders)
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Ok very glad we have now fully decended into madness.
Advanced biology isn't madness. Sexually dimorphic traits exist on more of a continuation, since they're a result of a gradient in terms of hormone balance, not an on/off deal like basic biology proponents think chromosomes are.

If someone tells me they are a man when they are not I am not denying their existance just telling the truth, they are still free to pretend whatever they want. Just as if I tried to pretend to you I was Chinese, you telling me the fact that I am not is correct.
Except they are a man, but even if you want to consider them a mentally ill woman, think about how effective transition is at treating gender dysphoria. Imagine if we could treat depression with simple medication alone. Imagine if there was a relatively simple surgery that could treat schizophrenia, or that we could treat bipolar disorder by simply calling someone a different name. All of this would be rightly celebrated within the medical society and would likely win Nobel prizes, and those that refused would likely be bludgeoned with the tomes on the side effects of old treatments like lithium. Is that the hill you really want to die on? Denying effective care because you're ideologically opposed to the recipients?

I hope to god this is all satire, and if not please leave our culture alone.
It's fact, not satire. Polynesian cultures have third genders like fa'afafine and Fakaleiti, old Albanian culture had the sworn virgins, the Indian subcontinent had the Hijra, native American tribes had things like two spirits, Hawaii has mahu, neopolitan society had Femminiello, Madagascan groups had Sekrata, Maori culture includes Whakawahine, Egyptian culture used to have the Mamluk, Aboriginal Australia had sistergirls and brotherboys, precolonial Andean culture had a dual-gendered god whose shamans were considered a third gender (Quariwarmi), Judaic culture had 6 genders. The notion of gender being binary is far from universal, it's very modern and very western.

Oh come on now this is just willful ignorance to try and push such a sickening behaviour, Drag is a disgusting fetish that is NOT suitable for children. it belongs in strip clubs and places where children are not welcome.
You call it wilful ignorance, I'd call it actually having seen a drag act before (and indeed having a few drag queen friends). Honestly the wilful ignorance here is yours.
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Napp
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Ah the madness continues, I dread having to put my kids in a school later in life.
Private School is the way forward.
(Original post by Fuego1)
If it wasnt for abrahamic religions, none of these issues with the no outsiders program would even exist in the first place.
I can assure you plenty of other religions dislike the idea of sodomy.
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
Every child should learn that people are different, something these adults have a hard time grasping.

Banning protests and the discouragement of students outside the gates is absolutely necessary, no child/parent should fear going to school because of some religious nutjobs.
Trust you to come down on the hard core authoritarian angle of they'll bloofdy well do as theyre told and damn their democratic rights. Irony abounds there.
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
Every child should learn that people are different, something these adults have a hard time grasping.
Oh, they grasp that people are different. They just think they should burn in hell/be killed for it.
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No I am happy with my course choice (507)
59.02%
I'm using Clearing when I have my exam results (124)
14.44%

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