About classical liberalism Watch

PTMalewski
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Qup)
Their ideology is kind of centrist I believe and no, it isn't another term for conservative or Trump supporter.
Yeah, we could say that Classical Liberals are on the left from Conservatism, Social Liberals on the left from Social Liberals, but Progressive Liberals, are way on the left from both Classical Liberalism and Social Liberalism, and they're not Liberals at all actually.

(Original post by BeetRoots)
And yet they tend to be socially conservative.
Then they should be called 'Liberal Conservatists'


(Original post by BeetRoots)
Their political philosophy very much depends on the sanctity of private property ownership and its defence by the state. Private property (which for the purposes of this discussion means land ownership) is as much a social construct as things like taxes and the NHS of course but they don't like that characterisation.
State is a social construct. The reason why Classical Liberalism defends private property, is because they believe, that people are more likely to be well informed what do they specifically need, and if there is no state-redistribution, there is also no costs of administration that waste financial resources, as well as far less corruption. It's a valid argument that is actually apparently seen in some countries.

Spoiler:
Show
In modern Poland for example, the civil service now has 8 times more personnel than the Polish Army, and 5,3 times more than the amount civil service personnel back in Communist Poland, when even dish recipes for restaurants were prepared by public administration, not by restaurants themselves. That leads to further pathological situations. For example; the minimal month salary is 1350PLN net, but a minimal retirement pension tax, that anyone self-employed has to pay each month, is 1500PLN. The result is that, for example, when you're going to work in a hurry, you can't buy a fresh sandwich from a street vendor for 3PLN. You have to find a shop, and buy one of those disgusting, days-old sandwiches for 7PLN, because a street vendor would need to run a registered company and use a cash-register. Otherwise, he would be fined by civil service workers who are paid for walking down streets and fining people who attempt to sell something at streets without cash-registers.
It's a pure pathology, I've recently calculated that only if the costs of civil-service was reduced by 75%, and if only one social handout was withdrawn, the one that pays anyone 500PLN a month for having the second child, Poland could easily afford resignation from collecting retirement taxes.


Even if somebody wastes his money, first of all it's doesn't happen that often, second of all, it's still better for economy than state-redistribution.
Say somebody buys 10 Mercedeses simultaneously. It's stupid to do, but at least the money comes back straight to the economy, without wasting that on administration, people have jobs, and the industry has money for development.

Classical liberals believe it's ok. and perhaps even beneficial if wise people discuss such stupid behaviors and convince people to spend their money for better purposes. But the state should be taking that money away by force, because it leads to waste and corruption, as state redistribution is likely to be poorly aimed, inefficient and slowing the economy down due to the administration costs.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by pepe the prophet)
Cant imagine why you opose those who meme the frog in my experience most of those guys have more in common with liberals than anyone else.

Its the very reason I embrace the kekistani identity because it mocks the collectivist identity politics of both the far left and the far right, more so the far left these days witch is largely due to the fact they hold so much institutional power.
I know there are some on the likes of 4chan who embrace it as a far right symbol thanks to Hillary Clinton but in my experience they don't represent the majority of us who meme the frog, I personally disavow racism in all its forms be it from the real alt right or the far left anti white rhetoric of the labour party.
I don't go around posting pepe memes to troll people unless they insult me first I usual go in to these types of conversations with the notion that the person I am speaking to might know something I don't
Ah, ”Kekistan”.
Look at its flag, compare it to the Nazi Wehrmacht flag, and tell me again your thoughts on it.
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pepe the prophet
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Ah, ”Kekistan”.
Look at its flag, compare it to the Nazi Wehrmacht flag, and tell me again your thoughts on it.
thats exactly the point LiberOflondon it is a mockery of the far right thats why i bought that flag but I allso bought the antifa version as well as I said it is a mockery of both far left and far right.
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
Why do you say so?
Can you actually give examples of things they are wrong about, and explain why?
Economics- tend to favour Austrian school Economics which is just wrong- eg by their logic the economy of the US should have utterly collapsed 100x over. Modern economics is somewhere between neoclassical, Marxism and MMT.

Individualism: it’s been wrong about human nature and society since it’s inception under Locke and Hobbes. Classical liberalism takes the most dimmest view of humanity possible - things like the NHS shouldn’t be possible according to classical liberalism. Like Marxism it’s entirely soulless and materialistic. The two ideologies have far more in common than people think.

Rights- believe in natural rights and other such absurdities , which is about as nonsensical as the ‘divine right if kings’. Rights do not exist and are mere abstractions that can be removed on a whim.

Rationalism- the above is basically down to the liberal belief into the supremacy of rationalism, and as humans are not soulless automations we are not purely rational beings and this (dare I say it) literally autistic way of thinking is very much predominant among classical liberal types. If Sheldon from the Big Bang theory studied politics he’d be a classical liberal. *


I hope this explains things

*this isn’t me using this as an insult. I have friends who are autistic and I They often see things others miss, but it is one lense of many that should be utilised that they are generally not equipped with / or have difficulty with this. As a very analytical person I was actually a classical liberal myself for some time because it was so appealing on a rational basis. Like A lot of Utopianism it works in theory not in practise.
Last edited by Alt Tankie; 1 month ago
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Economics- tend to favour Austrian school Economics which is just wrong- eg by their logic the economy of the US should have utterly collapsed 100x over. Modern economics is somewhere between neoclassical, Marxism and MMT.
Rather obsolete. Or maybe not wrong at all. How do you expect all the countries to pay back their debts, when the debt just keeps increasing? The Austrian school would say this spiral of speculation just has to collapse at some point. I expect it will.

(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Individualism: it’s been wrong about human nature and society since it’s inception under Locke and Hobbes. Classical liberalism takes the most dimmest view of humanity possible - things like the NHS shouldn’t be possible according to classical liberalism. Like Marxism it’s entirely soulless and materialistic. The two ideologies have far more in common than people think.
So what? I always perceived classical liberalism as a system that acts mainly on the flow of data. Liberalism makes a lot of assumptions

I would say that classical liberalism is far from perfection, but it would be hell a lot better than what we have in a lot of countries.
I also take the psychological factor into account. When people are left alone, they have to maintain their noble features. In the welfare state, callousness arises, as people expect the state to care of everyone and everything in need. From my knowledge and experience, the welfare state is inefficient, and harmful to society in the long term. Basically, it destroys society.

(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Rights- believe in natural rights and other such absurdities , which is about as nonsensical as the ‘divine right if kings’. Rights do not exist and are mere abstractions that can be removed on a whim.
Everything we know is an absurdity at some point. Assumptions we make are almost endless. The said rights are just simplifications of observed phenomenons that make things easier. To explain briefly what do I mean: purposefulness, like that of Aristotle, is a cognitive error, but it still allows to make fairly useful descriptions of the real world. Same as the geocentric system. Wrong at the core assumption, but it's mathematical apparatus worked really well for the purpose of calculating orbits.


(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Rationalism- the above is basically down to the liberal belief into the supremacy of rationalism, and as humans are not soulless automations we are not purely rational beings and this (dare I say it) literally autistic way of thinking is very much predominant among classical liberal types. If Sheldon from the Big Bang theory studied politics he’d be a classical liberal. *
Liberals always assumed that the better, more accurate, valid argument wins.
If you deny that, it only means that people are stupid.
That's why I'm not a democrat, hence I can agree with you.

We should be aware, that every political philosophy is a simplification. It has to be, the problem is far too complex to be consciously taken on. It's a bit like learning to count in memory. If you practice long enough, at some point you don't know how, but get the right numbers. Sometimes you don't know how to calculate something, but you get approximation that shows the right direction. It's not the exact result, but if you check it, it gives a pretty good clue.
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
Rather obsolete. Or maybe not wrong at all. How do you expect all the countries to pay back their debts, when the debt just keeps increasing? The Austrian school would say this spiral of speculation just has to collapse at some point. I expect it will.



So what? I always perceived classical liberalism as a system that acts mainly on the flow of data. Liberalism makes a lot of assumptions

I would say that classical liberalism is far from perfection, but it would be hell a lot better than what we have in a lot of countries.
I also take the psychological factor into account. When people are left alone, they have to maintain their noble features. In the welfare state, callousness arises, as people expect the state to care of everyone and everything in need. From my knowledge and experience, the welfare state is inefficient, and harmful to society in the long term. Basically, it destroys society.


Everything we know is an absurdity at some point. Assumptions we make are almost endless. The said rights are just simplifications of observed phenomenons that make things easier. To explain briefly what do I mean: purposefulness, like that of Aristotle, is a cognitive error, but it still allows to make fairly useful descriptions of the real world. Same as the geocentric system. Wrong at the core assumption, but it's mathematical apparatus worked really well for the purpose of calculating orbits.




Liberals always assumed that the better, more accurate, valid argument wins.
If you deny that, it only means that people are stupid.
That's why I'm not a democrat, hence I can agree with you.

We should be aware, that every political philosophy is a simplification. It has to be, the problem is far too complex to be consciously taken on. It's a bit like learning to count in memory. If you practice long enough, at some point you don't know how, but get the right numbers. Sometimes you don't know how to calculate something, but you get approximation that shows the right direction. It's not the exact result, but if you check it, it gives a pretty good clue.
Economics- they’ve been saying that for over a hundred years ago that the sky will fall if we don’t go back to the gold standard. Surely they don’t have any credibility now? The US is literally too big to fail right now, at least not from overspending.

Individualism: better than what? It depends what you want. If you just want to mindlessly consume products then sure classical liberalism is indeed for you.

This idea of rugged individualism is a literal myth from Hollywood. Yes people had to be very self reliant in the old west but that is in a very different time and place from us and we aren’t going back to that, especially not in the UK!

As I said to someone else recently- you are behaving reactionary about welfare and not looking at the underlying causes of what causes people to sink as low as these welfare claimants. The working class have been systematically been betrayed by subsequent governments who have allowed out sourcing, mass privatisation all the whilst allowing huge influxes of cheap labour from abroad. It is this capitalism which destroys society. The welfare state is the sticking plaster that stops these people rising up and justly slaughtering the people that caused this.

Rights- what an odd thing to say. How is everything an absurdity at some point? This is why I don’t believe classical liberal live in the real world but in some sort of theoretical abstraction.

I agree with you that we work on not absolutes but on near certainties. But that’s not what classical liberals, who believe in absolute property rights for instance, believe.

You also make a consequentialist argument (about the geocentric systems utility) again I agree but that is not where the CL’s are who make their views absolutist- eg the individual has a right to private property even at the expense of others.

Can you give me an example of a right being an observed phenomenon? It is not purely your ‘right’ to private property that prevents your Possessions being stolen is it? If a thief tries to steal your wallet an invisible hand does not descend down to deter him does it?

Rationalism-

I actually am a democrat. Just not a liberal one which seeks to hijack democracy and give liberalism legitimacy.

The most logical, rational argument is not always the best one. Eg how would you rationalise sacrificing yourself to save a loved one eg your child? why would you rationally waste your time helping an elderly stranger cross the road? There are CLs out there who would try and rationalise why it’s in tote self interest to do these things but

A) Nobody thinks like that
B) It just shows how morally bankrupt the philosophy is

I think brexit is simultaneously an irrational act of economic self harm and Also in the long run the right move that will make Britain happier and more secure.

Additionally I think plenty of seemingly rational decisions have gone on to ultimately harm people / and society, and that old ‘irrational’ forces turn out to be right. Eg the church used to argue against pornography, and they were dismissed as crackpots. Now pornography has had a dreadful impact on people’s lives- it’s destroyed a close friend of mines life.

‘As lucifer fell from heaven he realised he existed in a state of perfect freedom. But he was in hell’
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LiberOfLondon
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#27
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Economics- tend to favour Austrian school Economics which is just wrong- eg by their logic the economy of the US should have utterly collapsed 100x over. Modern economics is somewhere between neoclassical, Marxism and MMT.

Individualism: it’s been wrong about human nature and society since it’s inception under Locke and Hobbes. Classical liberalism takes the most dimmest view of humanity possible - things like the NHS shouldn’t be possible according to classical liberalism. Like Marxism it’s entirely soulless and materialistic. The two ideologies have far more in common than people think.

Rights- believe in natural rights and other such absurdities , which is about as nonsensical as the ‘divine right if kings’. Rights do not exist and are mere abstractions that can be removed on a whim.

Rationalism- the above is basically down to the liberal belief into the supremacy of rationalism, and as humans are not soulless automations we are not purely rational beings and this (dare I say it) literally autistic way of thinking is very much predominant among classical liberal types. If Sheldon from the Big Bang theory studied politics he’d be a classical liberal. *


I hope this explains things

*this isn’t me using this as an insult. I have friends who are autistic and I They often see things others miss, but it is one lense of many that should be utilised that they are generally not equipped with / or have difficulty with this. As a very analytical person I was actually a classical liberal myself for some time because it was so appealing on a rational basis. Like A lot of Utopianism it works in theory not in practise.
”Modern economics is somewhere between [list of lefty economic theories]”
Yeah, no. How's socialism working in Venezuela?
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Alt Tankie
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#28
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
”Modern economics is somewhere between [list of lefty economic theories]”
Yeah, no. How's socialism working in Venezuela?
Heh, where do you get your economic analysis. The Sun?

Neoclassical economics isn’t left wing and all sorts of figures from the left and right advocate for MMT.

Venezueala not doing that badly (if it was Madura wouldn’t have been re-elected in an internationally observed fair election)

Also Norway has a much higher percentage of state owned assets than Venezuela and are doing fine. The problem isn’t socialism itself more that Venezuela mishandled it’s oil reserves and faced external sanctions and pressure from the US.

If you want to compare capitalism and communism look at China and India. A lot of India makes Venezuela look like a utopia
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BeetRoots
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
State is a social construct. The reason why Classical Liberalism defends private property, is because they believe, that people are more likely to be well informed what do they specifically need, and if there is no state-redistribution, there is also no costs of administration that waste financial resources, as well as far less corruption. It's a valid argument that is actually apparently seen in some countries.

Spoiler:
Show
In modern Poland for example, the civil service now has 8 times more personnel than the Polish Army, and 5,3 times more than the amount civil service personnel back in Communist Poland, when even dish recipes for restaurants were prepared by public administration, not by restaurants themselves. That leads to further pathological situations. For example; the minimal month salary is 1350PLN net, but a minimal retirement pension tax, that anyone self-employed has to pay each month, is 1500PLN. The result is that, for example, when you're going to work in a hurry, you can't buy a fresh sandwich from a street vendor for 3PLN. You have to find a shop, and buy one of those disgusting, days-old sandwiches for 7PLN, because a street vendor would need to run a registered company and use a cash-register. Otherwise, he would be fined by civil service workers who are paid for walking down streets and fining people who attempt to sell something at streets without cash-registers.
It's a pure pathology, I've recently calculated that only if the costs of civil-service was reduced by 75%, and if only one social handout was withdrawn, the one that pays anyone 500PLN a month for having the second child, Poland could easily afford resignation from collecting retirement taxes.


Even if somebody wastes his money, first of all it's doesn't happen that often, second of all, it's still better for economy than state-redistribution.
Say somebody buys 10 Mercedeses simultaneously. It's stupid to do, but at least the money comes back straight to the economy, without wasting that on administration, people have jobs, and the industry has money for development.

Classical liberals believe it's ok. and perhaps even beneficial if wise people discuss such stupid behaviors and convince people to spend their money for better purposes. But the state should be taking that money away by force, because it leads to waste and corruption, as state redistribution is likely to be poorly aimed, inefficient and slowing the economy down due to the administration costs.
That might be how they present their political stance, i.e. society is all the better for allowing and defending the private ownership of portions of the earth but the flip side is that it generates monopolies and dependencies of non-owners and helps maintain a hierarchical society of an economic kind which kind-of fits with conservative sensibilities. It's not a coincidence that self-identifying classical liberals see conservatism as generally positive ideology.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Heh, where do you get your economic analysis. The Sun?

Neoclassical economics isn’t left wing and all sorts of figures from the left and right advocate for MMT.

Venezueala not doing that badly (if it was Madura wouldn’t have been re-elected in an internationally observed fair election)

Also Norway has a much higher percentage of state owned assets than Venezuela and are doing fine. The problem isn’t socialism itself more that Venezuela mishandled it’s oil reserves and faced external sanctions and pressure from the US.

If you want to compare capitalism and communism look at China and India. A lot of India makes Venezuela look like a utopia
Maduro was only re-elected due to some very creative gerry mandering that involved him making his own legislative body with only Socialist Party MPs. And India is hardly a neoliberal haven when you realise that it has a nationalised railway company. I don't read the Sun so not sure what your point is?
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Maduro was only re-elected due to some very creative gerry mandering that involved him making his own legislative body with only Socialist Party MPs. And India is hardly a neoliberal haven when you realise that it has a nationalised railway company. I don't read the Sun so not sure what your point is?
I’m saying you spout utter rubbish mate

On Venezuela: https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-fa...ection/242622/

So because India has a nationalised railway that means it’s not a neoliberal haven? Ok buddy 👌🏻 By that logic China is a liberal democracy because you can buy McDonald’s there.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
I’m saying you spout utter rubbish mate

On Venezuela: https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-fa...ection/242622/

So because India has a nationalised railway that means it’s not a neoliberal haven? Ok buddy 👌🏻 By that logic China is a liberal democracy because you can buy McDonald’s there.
Your source states ”Zionists” control the US.
:goaway:
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Your source states ”Zionists” control the US.
:goaway:
Aww do facts disagree with you?

They objectively do. Read the Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer or watch the Documentary the Lobby :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc

Or are these all conspiracy theories by tenured professors and award winning journalists?
Last edited by Alt Tankie; 1 month ago
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pepe the prophet
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Maduro was only re-elected due to some very creative gerry mandering that involved him making his own legislative body with only Socialist Party MPs. And India is hardly a neoliberal haven when you realise that it has a nationalised railway company. I don't read the Sun so not sure what your point is?
Don't forget imprisoning his political rivals and dissidents, rewriting the constitution in favour of his party, nullifying the plebiscite, rescinding the right to protest crashing the economy so hard that world of warcraft gold was worth more than the Venezuelans currency, at least 8,290 deaths carried out at the hands of officials as part of a social cleansing plan carried out by his government and so much more.

I still remember that s***e hawk comrade Corbyn signing the praises of Maduro saying how progressive the Maduro regime was.

Last I heard from Venezuela Maduro was running over protesters with tanks in a scene reminiscent of tianaman square and corbyn has nothing to say about that.

Don't worry though it wasn't real socialism right ?
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by pepe the prophet)
Don't forget imprisoning his political rivals and dissidents, rewriting the constitution in favour of his party, nullifying the plebiscite, rescinding the right to protest crashing the economy so hard that world of warcraft gold was worth more than the Venezuelans currency, at least 8,290 deaths carried out at the hands of officials as part of a social cleansing plan carried out by his government and so much more.

I still remember that s***e hawk comrade Corbyn signing the praises of Maduro saying how progressive the Maduro regime was.

Last I heard from Venezuela Maduro was running over protesters with tanks in a scene reminiscent of tianaman square and corbyn has nothing to say about that.

Don't worry though it wasn't real socialism right ?
😂😂😂 don’t forget if it wasn’t for Bush we’d be speaking Iraqi right now

Neocons like you are completely discredited posting smears and rubbish like the above. Venezuela’s did indeed arrest some politicians who were conspiring to launch a coup against the elected government with the assistance of a foreign power (USA) ... Which is called treason and is a crime in every country.

Happy to admit that Venezueala is real socialism which is run by the people not corporate interests and Goldman Sachs.

The US deep state will use every dirty trick and tactics to undermine states that don’t wanna t to be part of it’s deeply unpopular agenda. They’ve even got contingencies plans in case Corbyn
Gets elected :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.wa...outputType=amp
Last edited by Alt Tankie; 1 month ago
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Aww do facts disagree with you?

They objectively do. Read the Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer or watch the Documentary the Lobby :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc

Or are these all conspiracy theories by tenured professors and award winning journalists?
Der Stürmer and Völkischer Beobachter both had ”award winning [sic] journalists”, doesn't mean they weren't anti-Semitic tripe.
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Der Stürmer and Völkischer Beobachter both had ”award winning [sic] journalists”, doesn't mean they weren't anti-Semitic tripe.
😂😂😂

Yes, Al Jazeera and US tenured professors are literal Nazis. SMDH.

many brave jewish activists have highlighted that the Israeli Lobby does not speak for them - by wilfully conflating legitimate criticism of Israel with anti jewish hatred you are doing nothing but helping anti Semitism. Shame on you .
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NoTearsLeftToCry
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literally seen the word liberal a billion times on this site. y’all obsessed af
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
😂😂😂

Yes, Al Jazeera and US tenured professors are literal Nazis. SMDH.

many brave jewish activists have highlighted that the Israeli Lobby does not speak for them - by wilfully conflating legitimate criticism of Israel with anti jewish hatred you are doing nothing but helping anti Semitism. Shame on you .
https://www.adl.org/news/article/a-r...foreign-policy
I beg to differ.
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pepe the prophet
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
😂😂😂 don’t forget if it wasn’t for Bush we’d be speaking Iraqi right now

Neocons like you are completely discredited posting smears and rubbish like the above. Venezuela’s did indeed arrest some politicians who were conspiring to launch a coup against the elected government with the assistance of a foreign power (USA) ... Which is called treason and is a crime in every country.

Happy to admit that Venezueala is real socialism which is run by the people not corporate interests and Goldman Sachs.

The US deep state will use every dirty trick and tactics to undermine states that don’t wanna t to be part of it’s deeply unpopular agenda. They’ve even got contingencies plans in case Corbyn
Gets elected :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.wa...outputType=amp
I suppose the real Venezuelans I have spoken to lied to me when they told me all about this stuff, and all those gold farmers I have seen in WoW and runescape aren't real I mean its not like I'm basing this on simply newspaper articles and haven't made an effort to speak to any of them and been told this.

And I guess Luisa Ortega ex chief prosecutor was telling porkys when she appeared in front of the Hague and filed a complaint against the maduro regime for those 8290 deaths.

There was a time I was on the fence about what was going on in Venezuela but after speaking to multiple Venezuelans I'm convinced the story's of dictatorship are true.

Comes a point where your lots deep state conspiracy theory's just starts to wear a bit thin dude sounds like you have been watching too much CNN or info wars I cant decide.
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