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Alt Tankie
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#41
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#41
The ADL is a partisan jewish think tank. Nobody should care about a group who defines Jews such as Chomsky as race traitors

Like most of these hit pieces it doesn’t cite any thing to back up its claims just ad hominem.
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Alt Tankie
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#42
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#42
(Original post by pepe the prophet)
I suppose the real Venezuelans I have spoken to lied to me when they told me all about this stuff, and all those gold farmers I have seen in WoW and runescape aren't real I mean its not like I'm basing this on simply newspaper articles and haven't made an effort to speak to any of them and been told this.

And I guess Luisa Ortega ex chief prosecutor was telling porkys when she appeared in front of the Hague and filed a complaint against the maduro regime for those 8290 deaths.

There was a time I was on the fence about what was going on in Venezuela but after speaking to multiple Venezuelans I'm convinced the story's of dictatorship are true.

Comes a point where your lots deep state conspiracy theory's just starts to wear a bit thin dude sounds like you have been watching too much CNN or info wars I cant decide.
This may come as a shock to you but yeah people lie all the time. Remember this? We almost went to war over it:

https://www.mintpressnews.com/bbc-pr...staged/255152/

Now assuming you’re telling the truth about talking to disaffected Venezuelans... well they could be right. then again they could be wrong. Consider Brexit.

If you were s foreigner who spoke to my ex’s parents (who are smart people) you’d think that the Brexit vote was illegal because it was hacked by Russian bots. When you disrupt the status quo people become hysterical.

Now I’m willing to concede that there may be some dirty tricks from the Venezuelans regime but this is a democratically elected regime that has been under siege and gunned for by the US (who have a long history of staging coups against democratic regimes and installing dictators)
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LiberOfLondon
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#43
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#43
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
The ADL is a partisan jewish think tank. Nobody should care about a group who defines Jews such as Chomsky as race traitors

Like most of these hit pieces it doesn’t cite any thing to back up its claims just ad hominem.
”No true Scotsman would do such a thing!”
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Alt Tankie
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#44
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#44
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
”No true Scotsman would do such a thing!”
Yeah that’s basically what they do to jewish critics of Israel
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pepe the prophet
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#45
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#45
Alt tankie what's your opinion of this I mean you accuse me of being a smear merchant but will you believe your own eyes ?

https://www.ft.com/video/b6e0f8e0-ab...f-78981c8ac9ab
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Alt Tankie
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#46
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#46
(Original post by pepe the prophet)
Alt tankie what's your opinion of this I mean you accuse me of being a smear merchant but will you believe your own eyes ?

https://www.ft.com/video/b6e0f8e0-ab...f-78981c8ac9ab
Well I’m not particularly outraged to be honest, I saw the French gendarmes engage in a fair share of brutality during the yellow vest protest but I don’t remember any calling for regime change.

The context of the video is the opposition is calling for a coup. You would see the same sort of scenes if not worse play out in any country in that situation, including this one.

What is happening in Venezuela Is not happening in a vacuum, do you deny the blatant fact that powerful US interests have sought to undermine the Regime long before 2018.?

You might not like socialism, but do you at least think that it should be for the vezuealans to decide how they are governed?
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pepe the prophet
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#47
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#47
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Well I’m not particularly outraged to be honest, I saw the French gendarmes engage in a fair share of brutality during the yellow vest protest but I don’t remember any calling for regime change.

The context of the video is the opposition is calling for a coup. You would see the same sort of scenes if not worse play out in any country in that situation, including this one.

What is happening in Venezuela Is not happening in a vacuum, do you deny the blatant fact that powerful US interests have sought to undermine the Regime long before 2018.?

You might not like socialism, but do you at least think that it should be for the vezuealans to decide how they are governed?
maduro crashed his own economey without any help from the US if reports are to be believed he arrested all the people running the oil industry and installed his own inexperienced puppets who didn't have a clue about runing an oil industry.

Any accusations of the US undermining there economy is just conspiracy theory at best however I will not deny they are now undermining there economy since trump started sanctions against them with the goal of breaking them.

And yes I do believe in the right to self determination of foreign country's I just don't believe maduro was elected fairly.

And for the record I'm centrer left social liberal I am not 100% against socialisim i do support a mixed economy some things do run better under the control of the state.
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123543
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#48
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#48
Classical Liberalism is, in my eyes, a more economic-heavy brand of liberalism. It's slightly more fiscally conservative than 'Orange Book' Liberals. The focus is on the individual, lower taxation and decreased deficits. This could be seen as traditionally right-wing economics. Their staunch opposition to protectionism and support for free trade demonstrates an internationalist attitude to the ideology, though.

Most classical liberals will argue for assisted dying legalisation, abortion rights, LGBT rights and fairly open immigration. Some may see their social views as, on a 2D political axis, left-wing.

The reason for the conflation with the far-right, imo, is that many classical liberals are extremely eurosceptic, strongly defend free speech etc.

Most eurosceptic classical liberals will likely vote Brexit Party or perhaps Conservative under Boris Johnson. However, others may support the Blaritie wing of Labour or the Lib Dems for their social views, particularly the Orange Booker faction rather than the SocDem faction.

Don't take this as gospel, it's just my interpretation of the ideology. I wouldn't describe myself as a classical liberal either.
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Alt Tankie
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#49
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#49
(Original post by pepe the prophet)
maduro crashed his own economey without any help from the US if reports are to be believed he arrested all the people running the oil industry and installed his own inexperienced puppets who didn't have a clue about runing an oil industry.

Any accusations of the US undermining there economy is just conspiracy theory at best however I will not deny they are now undermining there economy since trump started sanctions against them with the goal of breaking them.

And yes I do believe in the right to self determination of foreign country's I just don't believe maduro was elected fairly.

And for the record I'm centrer left social liberal I am not 100% against socialisim i do support a mixed economy some things do run better under the control of the state.
He nationalised the countries oil reserves which they have every right to do. If they mismanaged it so what?

So it’s just a conspiracy theory that happens to be true now. Lol ok 😂

When do you dispute he was elected unfairly ?

The facts of the case are that various US governments have a long track record of launching coups against democratic regimes they didn’t like and installing puppet regimes. The US is now exerting pressure on Venezuela (I believe it’s been for far longer ) in your own words.

I am willing to concede to a point that it appears that Maduro has mismanaged Venezuela’s economy, engaged in some corruption and heavy handedness (though I think this is exacerbated by western media)

I would argue that even if he is as bad as he is made out to be was true, hell, even worse, the US should butt out and mind it’s own business- it’s got enough problems if it’s own.
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pepe the prophet
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
He nationalised the countries oil reserves which they have every right to do. If they mismanaged it so what?

So it’s just a conspiracy theory that happens to be true now. Lol ok 😂

When do you dispute he was elected unfairly ?

The facts of the case are that various US governments have a long track record of launching coups against democratic regimes they didn’t like and installing puppet regimes. The US is now exerting pressure on Venezuela (I believe it’s been for far longer ) in your own words.

I am willing to concede to a point that it appears that Maduro has mismanaged Venezuela’s economy, engaged in some corruption and heavy handedness (though I think this is exacerbated by western media)

I would argue that even if he is as bad as he is made out to be was true, hell, even worse, the US should butt out and mind it’s own business- it’s got enough problems if it’s own.
It's hard to say where it all started but here are some of the incidents that lead me to believe it is a dictatorship and not a fairly elected government.

CNN and BBC pulled off the air by Venezuela's government

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/30/m...bbc/index.html

Venezuela opposition allege coup as supreme court seizes power

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ional-assembly.

Venezuela arrests two opposition leaders in growing crackdown

https://www.dw.com/en/venezuela-arre...n/a-39914974-0

Venezuela plan to rewrite constitution branded a coup by former regional allies

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...w-constitution

Venezuela increases internet censorship and surveillance in crisis

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/0..._surveillance/

In Venezuela, prisoners say abuse is so bad they are forced to eat pasta mixed with excrement

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/s...23105354969088

Venezuela bans protests ahead of vote

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/27/a...ike/index.html

I believe its around this point in the time line when America started to interfere.

CIA Chief Hints Agency Is Working To Change Venezuelan Government

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47522.htm

Venezuela: New assembly approves treason trials for opposition

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-41091745

Venezuela: Repression taken into people’s living rooms as home raids surge

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ega-a-hogares/

Venezuela opposition banned from running in 2018 election

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42304594

this certainly dosent look like a democracy to me. anyway i need to stop gotta get up early tomorrow.
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PTMalewski
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#51
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#51
(Original post by BeetRoots)
That might be how they present their political stance, i.e. society is all the better for allowing and defending the private ownership of portions of the earth but the flip side is that it generates monopolies
Ok, but we should also consider if there aren't other factors that generate monopolies.

If we looked at the current US economy through the eyes of the US mid-XIXth century legislation, it would turn out that the current situation is heavily illegal.
Although the economy and official doctrine on that matter of the XIXth century US, can be fairly well described as classical liberal, the law back didn't allow the distinction between a physical person and legal person. It was also prohibited to establish corporations.
A corporation could be established only if:
- there was an important public interest (Eg. the town needs a big bridge)
-private business was unable to provide service to fulfill that public interest, because the scale of it is too big.
-corporation could be established only to fullfill the specific task of public interest
-corporation could be established only for a limited period of time, necessary to accomplish the task
-the income of said corporation had to be limited
-corporation couldn't own any land outside the state where the investment was being done
-corporation couldn't own anything that it didn't have to own to accomplish the task


The point of this regulation was to make sure that all people have equal opportunities on the market, and therefore to avoid a situation in which monopolies are made. Private companies back then, were often liquidated just as the owner was losing interest with age, divided or brought to downfall as a result of inheritance, after the owner's death. This naturally created business space for new individuals.

But there was much more to it.
First of all, it was more difficult for one company to accumulate such absurd amounts of resources, that would give it the edge over others. Second of all, they couldn't endlessly shift responsibilities eg. in case of a catasthrope. In the end it was the physical owner responsible.
Second of all, every person was equal. Corporations now have numerous priviledges over physical persons, as a result, the state creates monopolies, as individual businessmen can't compete with corportations.
The result was a completely different business environment, where everyone were legally equall, there had to be more competition, the market was more dynamic, and in case of very big projects, things had to be done rather by coalitions of companies, instead of a one massive company. As a result, the income was naturally distributed more equally.

(Original post by BeetRoots)
and dependencies of non-owners and helps maintain a hierarchical society of an economic kind which kind-of fits with conservative sensibilities.
There wasn't any society that lasted for a longer period of time, without hierarchy.
Even in small, medieval-communist groups (not in the Marxist terms obviously), there was some sorts of hierarchy. For example, the only blacksmith in the village was more vital for the community than one of many farmers. Same, shepherd was greater authority in terms of how to handle a sheep, instead of

(Original post by BeetRoots)
It's not a coincidence that self-identifying classical liberals see conservatism as generally positive ideology.
Again, good point maybe, but you're ignoring another factor, that is quite vital.

Perhaps the more important fundament of liberalism, is the awarness that the state is unable to have full information on everything someone would wish it to handle, and even if it had full information, it wouldn't always be able to conclude on it properly.
Therefore it is better if the state engages into as few issues as possible, because when it engages and decides eg. what should people think (such problem actually gave birth to the liberal idea), it can make a mistake spread it globally, causing excessive problems that would never happen if the mistake was done only by some individuals.

They also believed, that either most people are likely to be right, or if not, the ones who are right, have the power of rational persuasion, and the best beliefs would win in discussion, so it's just safer to leave most things alone.

Socialism presumes, that the state should be very intrusive in people's economy and personal choices. Conservatism is generally less intrusive, and nowadays also less, if at all, determined to impose certain beliefs on people, by force. Therefore, out of two evils, a classical liberal prefers conservatism over socialism.
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BeetRoots
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#52
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#52
(Original post by PTMalewski)
Again, good point maybe, but you're ignoring another factor, that is quite vital.

Perhaps the more important fundament of liberalism, is the awarness that the state is unable to have full information on everything someone would wish it to handle, and even if it had full information, it wouldn't always be able to conclude on it properly.
Therefore it is better if the state engages into as few issues as possible, because when it engages and decides eg. what should people think (such problem actually gave birth to the liberal idea), it can make a mistake spread it globally, causing excessive problems that would never happen if the mistake was done only by some individuals.

They also believed, that either most people are likely to be right, or if not, the ones who are right, have the power of rational persuasion, and the best beliefs would win in discussion, so it's just safer to leave most things alone.

Socialism presumes, that the state should be very intrusive in people's economy and personal choices. Conservatism is generally less intrusive, and nowadays also less, if at all, determined to impose certain beliefs on people, by force. Therefore, out of two evils, a classical liberal prefers conservatism over socialism.
My essential point is that private property, especially in the 'root' of land ownership (and thus the earth's resources) is inherently monopolistic, whether this is with or without corporatism. If a private citizen owns half of England, for example, they have monopolised access and use of that specific portion of the earth, hence economic hierarchy and thus social and political hierarchy. We are in danger of talking past each other on your other points as I don't believe in the actual existence of 'free-will' in the metaphysical sense nor accept that individuals are inherently rational when 'left to their own devices'. Our human behaviours are dominated by our evolved instincts, we're emotional and make decisions (as far as we make them) from complex and sometimes conflicting impulses.
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