Will Brexit be like the collapse of the Soviet Union? Watch

Greywolftwo
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Ratchet Hoe)
This sounds stupid but the economy will go down, and the vibes will change. Will it be similar?
Standards of living are lower than the economic recessions of the 90s
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Alt Tankie
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#82
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
IMHO Brexit triggering a Soviet style collapse will only happen if we leave cleanly and make a success of it. The main populist/Eurosceptic movements on the Continent are in a nice list for you below:
France: Rassemblement National/La France Insoumise - most likely to leave after Britain and both involved in the Gilets Jaunes.
Germany: Alternativ Für Deutschland - not doing well as far-right movements aren't (for obvious reasons) popular in Germany.
Finland: Perussuomalaiset - always get 20% but never more.
Italy: Lega Nord/M5S - in government.
Spain: Vox - not liked as Spain had a Fascist dictatorship in living memory.

IMHO Italy/France are most likely to leave.
Social conservatism combined with socialism is basically what most people want. This mainstream view which was basically the left wing norm for most of the 20th century has been slandered and attacked and cheaply caricatured as Nazism which the liberals have learned they can use to shut down debate.

Parties like Vox and AfD are relatively popular but would be hugely popular if they ditched their neoliberal policies and supported socialism: both I believe cite in welfare and corporate policies tax cuts- usual conservative crap. Same with Farage- the working class love him talking about Europe and immigration but freak out when he starts talking about the NHS.

One of the reasons, possibly the biggest reason is that they know they will be immediately get attacked by the establishment and MSM for being Nazis, so for extra good measure they become diehard Zionists eg see Donald Trump, Geert Wilders and Tommy Robinson. Of course they’ll still get attacked as bigots and racists (usually because they are eg Trump recently) but won’t pass any of their policies except maybe the ones relating to Israel- which is what’s happening to Trump.
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Alt Tankie
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#83
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I agree with this. But a regulated capitalist model is perfect to achieve this. You simply tax the things you don't want and the efficiency of private enterprise innovates to overcome the barrier. Capitalism regulated in the right way is perfectly poised to tackle climate change for example.

The trouble with centralised systems is that well meaning policies are gamed and create unintended consequences. For example there are well documented examples of this around NHS waiting time limits and educational targets.
Marx was wrong about a lot of things, but one thing he was absolutely right on was that you fundamentally cannot reform capitalism. The most you can do is temporarily hold it back- Sweden is probably the best example of this- but capitalism will always win out eventually.

Liberal democracies have a centralised system too. All economies are planned. All policies will to some degree create unintended consequences, that’s why among other reasons i’m socially conservative.

One other point I would like to make is that in Communist systems unintended consequences are almost always genuinely unintended. With liberal capitalists though I think this is seldom the case.
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Napp
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#84
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Parties like Vox and AfD are relatively popular but would be hugely popular if they ditched their neoliberal policies and supported socialism: both I believe cite in welfare and corporate policies tax cuts- usual conservative crap. Same with Farage- the working class love him talking about Europe and immigration but freak out when he starts talking about the NHS.
Pray tell what proof you have for this ludicrous assertion? Never mind the fact said hypothetical policies are utterly untenable.
One of the reasons, possibly the biggest reason is that they know they will be immediately get attacked by the establishment and MSM for being Nazis, so for extra good measure they become diehard Zionists eg see Donald Trump, Geert Wilders and Tommy Robinson. Of course they’ll still get attacked as bigots and racists (usually because they are eg Trump recently) but won’t pass any of their policies except maybe the ones relating to Israel- which is what’s happening to Trump.
Does one smell a conspiracy theory cooking?
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Fullofsurprises
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#85
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Is this satire??

IMHO Italy/France are most likely to leave.
They won't though, the Populist Right has peaked in most of Europe.
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Fullofsurprises
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#86
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
One other point I would like to make is that in Communist systems unintended consequences are almost always genuinely unintended. With liberal capitalists though I think this is seldom the case.
Don't think this is true. There's no planned 'intention' in capitalism to, for example, destroy the natural environment, yet that is what regularly happens under unfettered capitalism.

The Soviet model post-WW2 was essentially pseudo-capitalist, they dumped Marxism in favour of a class system of tiered salaries and an aristocratic party elite and used competition between firms to try to stimulate the economy, along with various background easings such as a thriving black market and allowing small farms to revive and trade independently. They never got as far as having a stock market, but they probably would have done under Gorbachev had he lasted.
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Alt Tankie
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#87
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(Original post by Napp)
Pray tell what proof you have for this ludicrous assertion? Never mind the fact said hypothetical policies are utterly untenable.

Does one smell a conspiracy theory cooking?
Do I really need proof that the working class don’t favour tax cuts for corporations or cuts in welfare??? 😤

What is it with you liberals and calling observable facts that happen right in front of you conspiracy theories? Yes. the media and the establishment will regularly call out people who deviate from the liberal agenda as Nazis, just this last week people as different to each other as Jeremy Corbyn and Donald Trump have been called Nazis.

The liberal world order is dying and liberals reaction is to cover there ears and eyes and scream conspiracy theory!

( all the while peddling actual conspiracy theories that Brexit and trump only happened because of a Russian bot army — certainly not that the EU and Clinton are massively unpopular)
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ByEeek
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
One other point I would like to make is that in Communist systems unintended consequences are almost always genuinely unintended. With liberal capitalists though I think this is seldom the case.
You may well be right. But ultimately governments make the rules and companies must abide by them. Capitalism is ultimately a selfish system. The trick is to swing the law so that people selfishly do the right thing.
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Alt Tankie
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#89
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(Original post by ByEeek)
You may well be right. But ultimately governments make the rules and companies must abide by them. Capitalism is ultimately a selfish system. The trick is to swing the law so that people selfishly do the right thing.
That should be the case but that is rapidly becoming the other way with big corporations bossing countries or territories around. Or just flat out buying politicians.

You cannot base a society around ‘tricks’ ... I have more faith in humanity than that. Money exacerbates the worst tendencies of human nature..
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Alt Tankie
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#90
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Don't think this is true. There's no planned 'intention' in capitalism to, for example, destroy the natural environment, yet that is what regularly happens under unfettered capitalism.

The Soviet model post-WW2 was essentially pseudo-capitalist, they dumped Marxism in favour of a class system of tiered salaries and an aristocratic party elite and used competition between firms to try to stimulate the economy, along with various background easings such as a thriving black market and allowing small farms to revive and trade independently. They never got as far as having a stock market, but they probably would have done under Gorbachev had he lasted.
Whilst capitalists may not intend to destroy the environment their sheer indifference to it is very similar in the same way man slaughter is to murder.

On your second point , yes to a degree, but I would say that they simply had no choice in order to survive in the circumstances. During the Sino-soviet split, I would have sided 100% with the Chinese who saw krushchevs folly and weakness and it’s inevitable end result.

Sure. Whilst I admire Marx to an extent I am not a ‘Marxist’ Communist . One of Many reasons is that I defend actually existing communist societies that work in practise such as China or Cuba .., even North Korea.
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Napp
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#91
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Do I really need proof that the working class don’t favour tax cuts for corporations or cuts in welfare??? 😤
Yes actually. Seeing as they benefit from social services which are funded by taxes.
What is it with you liberals and calling observable facts that happen right in front of you conspiracy theories? Yes. the media and the establishment will regularly call out people who deviate from the liberal agenda as Nazis, just this last week people as different to each other as Jeremy Corbyn and Donald Trump have been called Nazis.
I dont think you know what a liberal is to be frank with you.
I call the rubbish you say a conspiracy theory because, well, it is.
The liberal world order is dying and liberals reaction is to cover there ears and eyes and scream conspiracy theory!
If you say so kiddo. But pray tell, what is rising in its place?
( all the while peddling actual conspiracy theories that Brexit and trump only happened because of a Russian bot army — certainly not that the EU and Clinton are massively unpopular)
I should point out you're undermining your own point quite badly here, and making yourself a fool at the same time, with this rather amusing insinuation that i somehow blame Russia for everything. Something any user on this forum can correct you on.
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Alt Tankie
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#92
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(Original post by Napp)
Yes actually. Seeing as they benefit from social services which are funded by taxes.

I dont think you know what a liberal is to be frank with you.
I call the rubbish you say a conspiracy theory because, well, it is.

If you say so kiddo. But pray tell, what is rising in its place?

I should point out you're undermining your own point quite badly here, and making yourself a fool at the same time, with this rather amusing insinuation that i somehow blame Russia for everything. Something any user on this forum can correct you on.
...........
I assure you most working class people do not support tax cuts for the rich and corporations. I can only assume you’re acting in bad faith if you really dispute this.

A liberal is someone who believes in all or most of the tenets of liberalism and can include classical or social liberalism. I would say that most western governments fall under this spectrum.

You know just because you say something is a conspiracy theory doesn’t mean it is. If you refuse to deal in objective reality then I’m afraid I can’t help you buddy and perhaps you should find yourself a Support Worker.

What is rising is a very diverse range of ideas which can be broadly called populism- this is another observable and widely reported on phenomena,

For somebody quite rude, but not actually very good at it, you should really learn to read. Did I accuse you specifically of this? No. But plenty of liberal establishment figures across the West from Hilary Clinton to Lord Adonis and many, many other prominent people are engaging in this. Or is this another conspiracy theory I’m peddling?
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LiberOfLondon
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#93
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
They won't though, the Populist Right has peaked in most of Europe.
Agreed - I keep up with Finnish politics and read Hesari on my phone, PS have peaked at 20% and spend most of their time with Lapland people (lapdancers? ) making racist posts on Facebook.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#94
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lmao, TSR commies out in full force :rofl:

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BeetRoots
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#95
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Nonsense absolute nonsense. Brexit is a call for control you're trump card (racists) has lost its ink... Over use
You think it's 'absolute nonsense' that there might be a recession as a result of Brexit. Only a Putin-bot could suggest such a thing.
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Burton Bridge
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#96
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(Original post by BeetRoots)
You think it's 'absolute nonsense' that there might be a recession as a result of Brexit. Only a Putin-bot could suggest such a thing.
Oh really, the bigotry you are showing is outstanding. Brexit has nothing to do with putin or communism, I think you need to look up the definition of 'might be' let's revist what you said for a moment.
(Original post by BeetRoots)
We'll see EU protections eroded, we might see Scotland leave the UK, we might see renewed troubles in NI, we'll see recession and an end to investment to regions which have often involved EU money. Brexit is a turn to fascism and racism, it's a disaster.
1) EU protections the EU does not give us workers rights, a labour Government does which has nothing to do with remaining in the EU.

2) We might see all sorts, I might have a threesum with my Mrs and her mate as well. The delusion that everything negative is a direct result of Brexit is ludicrous and without logic.

3) We give over 100 million per week more to the EU than we get back, isn't it kind they give us our own money back? For heavens sake it's our money in the first place!

4) No its nothing to do with fascism or racism, the reverse is true, are you saying Tony Benn is a fascist and a racist? You really have no idea what you are talking about! Like I said absolute nonsense.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 month ago
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BeetRoots
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#97
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Denying that there will be any negative economic consequences to Brexit' pretty much signifies the mindset of the Brextremist Putin-Puppet.
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LiberOfLondon
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#98
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(Original post by BeetRoots)
You think it's 'absolute nonsense' that there might be a recession as a result of Brexit. Only a Putin-bot could suggest such a thing.
”Everyone I don't like is a Russian bot”
I didn't know Carole Codswallop was on TSR.
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BeetRoots
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#99
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
”Everyone I don't like is a Russian bot”
I didn't know Carole Codswallop was on TSR.
Wrong, I only regard Brexiteers specifically as witting or unwitting pawns of Putin, Carole.
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Alt Tankie
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#100
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Agreed - I keep up with Finnish politics and read Hesari on my phone, PS have peaked at 20% and spend most of their time with Lapland people (lapdancers? ) making racist posts on Facebook.
I don’t see any evidence that the populists have been quashed. In Finland the Finns doubled their number of MPs, whilst the EU elections were disappointing for them, they did double their vote which in turn had doubled over from last time.



Fullofsurprises
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