Is this cheating my way into Oxford?

The colleges don't mind. My son graduated from Oxford with a German degree, and he studied with people whose mothers were German etc. He is a quarter German, but didn't have any contact with his German grandmother.

When I went to the languages open day, there was a girl who was applying for French who was living in France and went to a French school.

But here's the kicker: languages degrees at Oxford are over 80% literature, so it's like learning English literature, but in a foreign language. You have mentioned that "you don't see yourself enjoying it at university (the literature in particular). Is that literature in general, or just German literature?"

At interview, my son had to analyse a poem in English, then a poem in German. Then he had to speak about a book he mentioned in his PS. There was a short conversation in German, but it wasn't by any means a large part of the interview. You may be completely fluent in the language, but could you see yourself struggling with the literature? My son's German language proficiency was good, but his English literature marks were excellent (100 UMS in one paper).

Also you would have to be good at philosophy and get decent marks in the TSA test.

I am blogging a book on TSR I am writing about getting in to Oxford for several subjects. My son has written a chapter about how he got in for German. There is also a description of the course, which may help. Also there will be a chapter on philosophy from a friend of his, who is now in his final year for Philosophy and Theology.

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/university/oxbridge/oxford-demystified-german

Original post by gabrielle22

Hi there!

I will be applying to Oxford for 2020 entry to study Philosophy and Modern Languages.
I took the French Bac this year and got good results (18.5/20 overall when I only need 16/20 to apply to Ox). This year I've totally fallen in love with philosophy and I particularly loved the philosophy of language module we got to study in the Bac.

Now my problem : I don't know what language to apply for. I have three possible options -

- Philosophy and German : I've been living in Berlin for the last 2-3 years but I'm pretty insecure about my German even though I got great examination results (19/20) and although I can appreciate it from an intellectual standpoint, I don't see myself enjoying it at university (the literature in particular).

- Philosophy and Beginner's Italian : I've always wanted to learn Italian, it's a beautiful language, great culture...etc But the combination is a bit strange and I'm worried I'll be at a disadvantage due to the fact that it is a joint course WITH a beginner's option which makes it rather hard. Also the language aptitude test scares me lol.

- Philosophy and French : Most of the philosophers I like to read are French, I have a very good background in the literature obviously given I went to a French school the last two years and the MLAT would be easy. But this feels like I'm cheating my way into a place. I was born in France and although I left when I was 5yrs old and only went back into the French system only 2 years ago, my whole family is French which makes me feel as though I wouldn't deserve a place as much as someone who just learnt it at A-Level.

Do people who apply to study languages as part of a joint course sometimes have a background that matches said language? How would the colleges view my application?

Reply 3

Parliament

12

Personally I always find it weird when people go abroad to study their own language - like, sure, of course you got into a superb uni in the country you landed in, because you're fluent in the language you're "learning" and competing against natives who aren't, but like, realistically what's the point? What have you gained other than the name on your CV and the flex points (neither of which mean much when it's immediately apparent to anyone who looks into it that you studied your own language)? I always feel like people who do that are placing greater value on the prestige of the uni they go to than they place on their own development and education, which is utterly bizarre and perverse (to me, at least). That should never be the objective of a degree imo - it's a total waste of a potentially life-changing and enriching few years, not to mention thousands of £££s.

Reply 4

OP

Hi! Thanks for the reply :smile:

To clarify, I meant I couldn't see myself enjoying specifically German literature as I have already been given a taster of it at school (and whilst living in Berlin) and I am not particularly drawn to it. However, other kinds of literature - whether English or French - have always been a strong point of mine academically. I actually applied for English literature last year before being told that the modules taught in the French bac were insufficient in that they did not match the level taught at A-Level - having said that, before moving to Germany I was in an English school and was achieving the best grades in my year for English lit.

The thing is I don't just have a French mother, although I have travelled a lot and been subject to different language school systems, I am French (and Australian haha) - which I suppose might make me feel like an impostor.

Yes, philosophy and the literature portion of the degree is huge but I'm wondering whether people (students, teachers...etc) would view me as inadequate because of my background which "helped me get in" (if I were to even get in in the first place). I understand this concern may appear superficial but I do think it is important.

Original post by Oxford Mum

The colleges don't mind. My son graduated from Oxford with a German degree, and he studied with people whose mothers were German etc. He is a quarter German, but didn't have any contact with his German grandmother.

When I went to the languages open day, there was a girl who was applying for French who was living in France and went to a French school.

But here's the kicker: languages degrees at Oxford are over 80% literature, so it's like learning English literature, but in a foreign language. You have mentioned that "you don't see yourself enjoying it at university (the literature in particular). Is that literature in general, or just German literature?"

At interview, my son had to analyse a poem in English, then a poem in German. Then he had to speak about a book he mentioned in his PS. There was a short conversation in German, but it wasn't by any means a large part of the interview. You may be completely fluent in the language, but could you see yourself struggling with the literature? My son's German language proficiency was good, but his English literature marks were excellent (100 UMS in one paper).

Also you would have to be good at philosophy and get decent marks in the TSA test.

I am blogging a book on TSR I am writing about getting in to Oxford for several subjects. My son has written a chapter about how he got in for German. There is also a description of the course, which may help. Also there will be a chapter on philosophy from a friend of his, who is now in his final year for Philosophy and Theology.

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/university/oxbridge/oxford-demystified-german

Reply 5

No they won't. It will be the literature that will get you in, if anything. If you're ok with the literature, apply away. I will put you on the tag list for further chapters of my book.

Original post by gabrielle22

Hi! Thanks for the reply :smile:

To clarify, I meant I couldn't see myself enjoying specifically German literature as I have already been given a taster of it at school (and whilst living in Berlin) and I am not particularly drawn to it. However, other kinds of literature - whether English or French - have always been a strong point of mine academically. I actually applied for English literature last year before being told that the modules taught in the French bac were insufficient in that they did not match the level taught at A-Level - having said that, before moving to Germany I was in an English school and was achieving the best grades in my year for English lit.

The thing is I don't just have a French mother, although I have travelled a lot and been subject to different language school systems, I am French (and Australian haha) - which I suppose might make me feel like an impostor.

Yes, philosophy and the literature portion of the degree is huge but I'm wondering whether people (students, teachers...etc) would view me as inadequate because of my background which "helped me get in" (if I were to even get in in the first place). I understand this concern may appear superficial but I do think it is important.

Reply 6

OP

Thank you. You've eased me a bit. I have a couple of friends who have just graduated after having studied Modern Languages at Ox so I'll ask their advice but in that case I might apply for Phil + French, especially given French philosophy is what I'm most keen on.

Thanks again for your advice! :smile:

Original post by Oxford Mum

No they won't. It will be the literature that will get you in, if anything. If you're ok with the literature, apply away. I will put you on the tag list for further chapters of my book.

Reply 7

I know my son studied German philosophy, so I would imagine you could study French philosophy as well

Reply 8

dreksupport

5

..

(edited 2 years ago)

Reply 9

qwertyuiop1993

16

Original post by gabrielle22

Thank you. You've eased me a bit. I have a couple of friends who have just graduated after having studied Modern Languages at Ox so I'll ask their advice but in that case I might apply for Phil + French, especially given French philosophy is what I'm most keen on.

Thanks again for your advice! :smile:

I did French at Oxford and a girl in the year above who was 100% French did French Sole. What's more, my grammar tutor always talked about how she taught lots of native speakers, some of whom exasperated her with their weak grammar. Always thought it was a bit weird but it obviously does happen (I don't even think this girl got a First, which is a testament to the breadth of skills involved in a Modern Languages degree). I don't think it's cheating your way in, as you need to convince the Philosophy faculty to want you + the Modern Languages tutors will probably hold you to a much higher standard / focus more on your literary analysis skills.

You'd probably find the language-side of the course pretty easy, though the finer nuances of translation can trip up everyone, including bilinguals. If you get into Medieval literature, you'd be learning Medieval French / Anglo-Norman which I presume you don't really learn at school in France. Overall, I'd say for the French side of your course around half your time (or more) would be spent writing essays on French literature, doing commentaries etc.

Here is the first year French course, see if you like the look of it:
https://weblearn.ox.ac.uk/access/content/group/modlang/general/handbooks/2018-19/French%20Prelims%20handbook%2018-19.pdf

And options from 2nd year and beyond:
https://weblearn.ox.ac.uk/access/content/group/modlang/general/handbooks/2019-20/FHS/FrenchFHSHandbook19_20.pdf

There really is a lot of literature to be studied, so if you think you can handle being slightly bored for the language-side, I think you have enough to stimulate you in the other papers. (And of course you have the Philosophy side as well)

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 10

Top response. This poster has personal experience, and knows her onions. So it is possible to get in being a native speaker, but you will have to master other skills as well. And you will have to convince them in interview you can handle the literature side.

Original post by qwertyuiop1993

I did French at Oxford and a girl in the year above who was 100% French did French Sole. What's more, my grammar tutor always talked about how she taught lots of native speakers, some of whom exasperated her with their weak grammar. Always thought it was a bit weird but it obviously does happen (I don't even think this girl got a First, which is a testament to the breadth of skills involved in a Modern Languages degree). I don't think it's cheating your way in, as you need to convince the Philosophy faculty to want you + the Modern Languages tutors will probably hold you to a much higher standard / focus more on your literary analysis skills.

You'd probably find the language-side of the course pretty easy, though the finer nuances of translation can trip up everyone, including bilinguals. If you get into Medieval literature, you'd be learning Medieval French / Anglo-Norman which I presume you don't really learn at school in France. Overall, I'd say for the French side of your course around half your time (or more) would be spent writing essays on French literature, doing commentaries etc.

Here is the first year French course, see if you like the look of it:
https://weblearn.ox.ac.uk/access/content/group/modlang/general/handbooks/2018-19/French%20Prelims%20handbook%2018-19.pdf

And options from 2nd year and beyond:
https://weblearn.ox.ac.uk/access/content/group/modlang/general/handbooks/2019-20/FHS/FrenchFHSHandbook19_20.pdf

There really is a lot of literature to be studied, so if you think you can handle being slightly bored for the language-side, I think you have enough to stimulate you in the other papers. (And of course you have the Philosophy side as well)

Reply 11

Mixedraceguy

22

When you say cheating your way into something is pretentious

Reply 12

OP

Hi thanks for your response :smile:

Actually I'm not so sure as I have a friend who got in this year doing German and French whilst being originally from both Austria and France.

I want to reiterate that the reason I'm considering this isn't because I want to 'cheat my way into the system', it's because I have a passion for philosophy (particularly that which is focused on language) and most of the literature I enjoy reading, including philosophical works, is French.

Because I've lived in several countries over the last few years and have often adapted to new language systems, my French spelling and grammar is far from ideal. This course would also be an opportunity to fine-tune it.
I'll definitely ask, but I'm not sure being already fluent would stop me. I'm also Australian as well as French so it could be argued I'm not 100% French either.

Original post by dreksupport

Hey there! I'm also a French (and American) student at Oxford, doing PPE. Although I did the OIB, I got similar scores to you.

While I would encourage you to look into this yourself and ask those currently studying, I can say that I joked about doing this-'haha, I speak French so maybe I should have just applied for your subject' and I got told that I probably would not have been accepted because they do not like 'finished products' so to speak that are already fluent in the language they are studying.If you took the French bac and did so well, that indicates to me a native level of fluency, which might hold you back more than anything (if the info I got is accurate).

I suggest looking at what Oxford itself has to say on the topic-if one could 'cheat' their way into the language courses straightforwardly like this, there would be many more Europeans at Oxford. So before you start feeling guilty, check that this isn't something they account for.

I realize this anecdote sort of runs contrary to what others in this thread have stated-I will say that regardless of the official stance a big part of modern language courses at oxford (at least the first year, from what I've seen from my friends) is focused on helping students reach fluency in their chosen language, it sounds like you have much more to gain by learning Italian or German and branching out into those philosophers-you will still get to look at French philosophers on the Philosophy side.

Reply 13

OP

Thanks!

Like I wrote in a post just above my grammar does indeed need some work.
When I talk about "cheating my way in" I don't mean it from the perspective of my actual intentions (which are to learn about philosophy and some form of literature at a great university), I'm just worried that if I were to get in, my peers or the tutors would be somewhat judgemental as they might feel I didn't "earn my place" like others studying languages based solely on A-Levels.

Thing is, I was going to apply for Philosophy and a beginner's language but as I was writing my personal statement I began to realise that almost the totality of my references and the things I wanted to talk about WERE French. It was more of a "well clearly this seems to be what I want to be doing" kind of a thing.

I really appreciate the links you sent in and will definitely be checking them out. :smile:

Original post by qwertyuiop1993

I did French at Oxford and a girl in the year above who was 100% French did French Sole. What's more, my grammar tutor always talked about how she taught lots of native speakers, some of whom exasperated her with their weak grammar. Always thought it was a bit weird but it obviously does happen (I don't even think this girl got a First, which is a testament to the breadth of skills involved in a Modern Languages degree). I don't think it's cheating your way in, as you need to convince the Philosophy faculty to want you + the Modern Languages tutors will probably hold you to a much higher standard / focus more on your literary analysis skills.

You'd probably find the language-side of the course pretty easy, though the finer nuances of translation can trip up everyone, including bilinguals. If you get into Medieval literature, you'd be learning Medieval French / Anglo-Norman which I presume you don't really learn at school in France. Overall, I'd say for the French side of your course around half your time (or more) would be spent writing essays on French literature, doing commentaries etc.

Here is the first year French course, see if you like the look of it:
https://weblearn.ox.ac.uk/access/content/group/modlang/general/handbooks/2018-19/French%20Prelims%20handbook%2018-19.pdf

And options from 2nd year and beyond:
https://weblearn.ox.ac.uk/access/content/group/modlang/general/handbooks/2019-20/FHS/FrenchFHSHandbook19_20.pdf

There really is a lot of literature to be studied, so if you think you can handle being slightly bored for the language-side, I think you have enough to stimulate you in the other papers. (And of course you have the Philosophy side as well)

Reply 14

You know what, op, just apply for French and philosophy. That’s where your heart is. Spend this summer doing some reading to deepen your interest

Reply 15

OP

I've had a chat with some more friends who just graduated (one of which was actually German doing German sole) and I think in the end I will - it doesn't seem to pose a problem and I really do love French lit + philo. Thank you for your advice.

Original post by Oxford Mum

You know what, op, just apply for French and philosophy. That’s where your heart is. Spend this summer doing some reading to deepen your interest

Reply 16

Problem sorted, Yay! :smile:

I will be blogging my son's chapter about getting into Oxford for modern languages over the weekend. I know it's not French, but the principles are exactly the same. And as I said, even if you did French sole, you would still get a bit of philosophy mixed in with the degree.

Original post by gabrielle22

I've had a chat with some more friends who just graduated (one of which was actually German doing German sole) and I think in the end I will - it doesn't seem to pose a problem and I really do love French lit + philo. Thank you for your advice.

Reply 17

OP