By punishing Iran, Trump risks a war between our two countries - Mohammed Khatami Watch

Napp
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An interesting piece in the Guardian by one of Irans former presidents

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...full-scale-war
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999tigger
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(Original post by Napp)
An interesting piece in the Guardian by one of Irans former presidents

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...full-scale-war
Does he mean UK and Iran or the US and Iran?

If he means UK and Iran, then there is no risk of war unless Iran continues to take ships from international waters.
The UK cant do much militarily on its own.
Being in the straits with all those missiles is imo very risky for the UK and a bad idea. If Iran wants to keep seizing ships let them as it only plays into trumps hands and loses them any sympathy or goodwill. The ships are small beer and they affect other nations more than the UK. Effectively they have seized a Swedish owned ship with a Russian and Indian crew.

Whilst Britain is unable to do anything militarily the more Iran goes on with the triumphalism even if its for domestic consumption just pushes the UK to be less well disposed towards Iran/ Id expect more sanctions not less. It was the wrong strategy. If Iran does continue in this vein and closes down the straits, then as night follows day there will be an alliance and conflict.
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Napp
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Does he mean UK and Iran or the US and Iran?

If he means UK and Iran, then there is no risk of war unless Iran continues to take ships from international waters.
The UK cant do much militarily on its own.
Being in the straits with all those missiles is imo very risky for the UK and a bad idea. If Iran wants to keep seizing ships let them as it only plays into trumps hands and loses them any sympathy or goodwill. The ships are small beer and they affect other nations more than the UK. Effectively they have seized a Swedish owned ship with a Russian and Indian crew.

Whilst Britain is unable to do anything militarily the more Iran goes on with the triumphalism even if its for domestic consumption just pushes the UK to be less well disposed towards Iran/ Id expect more sanctions not less. It was the wrong strategy. If Iran does continue in this vein and closes down the straits, then as night follows day there will be an alliance and conflict.
I believe he's solely referring to the US in this, although he points out the duplicity of all other signatories in not honouring the spirit of the agreement.
Indeed, although i'll be curious to see how our incoming regime handles, or mishandles, this situation.
With all this being said, whilst i dont especially agree with Irans actions, its rather hard to fault them. I mean they Zarif isnt wrong when he says the US is waging economic warfare/terrorism against Iran at the moment and the EU countries are being disgracefully dishonest in not living up to their legal commitments in the JCPOA.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Napp)
An interesting piece in the Guardian by one of Irans former presidents

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...full-scale-war
Interesting. This could to WW3.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Napp)
An interesting piece in the Guardian by one of Irans former presidents

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...full-scale-war
This could lead to WW3
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999tigger
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(Original post by Napp)
I believe he's solely referring to the US in this, although he points out the duplicity of all other signatories in not honouring the spirit of the agreement.
Indeed, although i'll be curious to see how our incoming regime handles, or mishandles, this situation.
With all this being said, whilst i dont especially agree with Irans actions, its rather hard to fault them. I mean they Zarif isnt wrong when he says the US is waging economic warfare/terrorism against Iran at the moment and the EU countries are being disgracefully dishonest in not living up to their legal commitments in the JCPOA.
Ok I dont think it was clear.

I think Iran underestimates the west and are getting it wrong.
In any event they can sort it out with the US. They cant honestly expect the UK to speak up for them.
Boris wont be sympathetic towards Iran and he wont really want to get involved or see why he should be trying to calm things down, especially if there are no British service personnel at risk. Ironically of Iran continues to seize ships they provide the excuse Bolton wants.

It was a bad idea to show the crew on TV and use them for publicity, gives very bad memories of Saddam and Iran. I dont think the Iranians have pulled off the masterstroke they seem to be claiming. People have been more interested in the football, netball, cricket. TDF, Love Island. Boris is more interested in Boris a bit of Brexit and the election. They can fill their boots if they want to hijack more UK flagged ships.
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999tigger
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Btw isnt the headline a bit silly. Trump and Bolton know exactly what they are doing. As Palmyra likes to trumpet the Iranians are the masters of escalation. Maybe thats what the US wants until it has enough.to give it options. See what happens.
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Napp
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Btw isnt the headline a bit silly. Trump and Bolton know exactly what they are doing. As Palmyra likes to trumpet the Iranians are the masters of escalation. Maybe thats what the US wants until it has enough.to give it options. See what happens.
Whys it silly? It’s Khatamis view on the matter. To be honest I’m inclined to take him at his word, having served in Irainin politics decades he knows what he’s talking about. Especially as he was the one who led the push for better relations with the west. Which Bush disgracefully then branded him/Iran terrorists in response.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Ok I dont think it was clear.

I think Iran underestimates the west and are getting it wrong.
In any event they can sort it out with the US. They cant honestly expect the UK to speak up for them.
Boris wont be sympathetic towards Iran and he wont really want to get involved or see why he should be trying to calm things down, especially if there are no British service personnel at risk. Ironically of Iran continues to seize ships they provide the excuse Bolton wants.

It was a bad idea to show the crew on TV and use them for publicity, gives very bad memories of Saddam and Iran. I dont think the Iranians have pulled off the masterstroke they seem to be claiming. People have been more interested in the football, netball, cricket. TDF, Love Island. Boris is more interested in Boris a bit of Brexit and the election. They can fill their boots if they want to hijack more UK flagged ships.
I think you are falling into the trap that the media wants you to be in. Iran have not seized any ship or tankers across the Strait, even American/Israeli vessels have been allowed to pass. There were two tankers that were stopped, one with a British flag and the other with a Liberian flag. They allowed the Liberian flag to go but impounded the British one.

This is simply tit for tat and not a “master plan” by Iran. We seized one of the vessels close to Gibraltar and they seized ours. Simple. The Iranian Foreign Minister has asked for the release of their ship, so they can release our own vessel. Yes, they were goading us by releasing videos to show them to be strong, but it is silly geopolitics and nothing more.

I think the main question is why are we being the Americans puppet again after Iraq? Then it was Blair and now it is Madam May. Apparently, Bolton told us to seize the Iranian tanker, but Mr Hunt has denied it.

I don't think we need another global war now, we are trying to make Brexit a success.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Iran have not seized any ship or tankers across the Strait, even American/Israeli vessels have been allowed to pass. There were two tankers that were stopped, one with a British flag and the other with a Liberian flag. They allowed the Liberian flag to go but impounded the British one.
Iran illegally took control of the British-flagged vessel, that was in international waters. The UK legally took took control of a vessel in near Gibraltar.

Iran's actions amount to piracy. The vessel had every right to defend itself. Luckily, they didn't assert that right, or this would have ended very badly.

(Original post by mindreader101)
Simple. The Iranian Foreign Minister has asked for the release of their ship, so they can release our own vessel.
Again, one was legal under international law, and one wasn't.

(Original post by mindreader101)
we are trying to make Brexit a success.
Funny.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Napp)
Whys it silly? It’s Khatamis view on the matter. To be honest I’m inclined to take him at his word, having served in Irainin politics decades he knows what he’s talking about. Especially as he was the one who led the push for better relations with the west. Which Bush disgracefully then branded him/Iran terrorists in response.
Because it is stating the obvious. They are both playing a game. I hope the UK doesnt get dragged in and just lets Iran get on with pirating as many ships as it wants. Doubt trying to humiliate the UK is going to work. Not sure what the scope is but Iran can expect more sanctions and its policy to be highly polarising. At the end of it you have two sides who dont trust each other. The US believes Iran intends to make a bomb eventually and neither side is going to trust the other. Let them get on with it.
Hopefully the UK can avoid having ships sunk in the straits.

To the extent the UK can influence anything by speaking up for Iran with the EU and the US I cant see that happening. I can see them just taking a back seat and waiting to see what happens. Maybe a new round of sanctions/ freezing of assets.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I think you are falling into the trap that the media wants you to be in. Iran have not seized any ship or tankers across the Strait, even American/Israeli vessels have been allowed to pass. There were two tankers that were stopped, one with a British flag and the other with a Liberian flag. They allowed the Liberian flag to go but impounded the British one.

This is simply tit for tat and not a “master plan” by Iran. We seized one of the vessels close to Gibraltar and they seized ours. Simple. The Iranian Foreign Minister has asked for the release of their ship, so they can release our own vessel. Yes, they were goading us by releasing videos to show them to be strong, but it is silly geopolitics and nothing more.

I think the main question is why are we being the Americans puppet again after Iraq? Then it was Blair and now it is Madam May. Apparently, Bolton told us to seize the Iranian tanker, but Mr Hunt has denied it.

I don't think we need another global war now, we are trying to make Brexit a success.
Except you dont see the difference of one being in UK waters and the other in international ones. One is illegal the other is not.
Ofc they havent been molesting American and Israeli vessels (if there are any) because they would get immediate strikes back.
More crazy talk from you.

The only British thing about the ship they seized from international waters is it had a british flag but the crew and ownership is in fact international.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Except you dont see the difference of one being in UK waters and the other in international ones. One is illegal the other is not.
Ofc they havent been molesting American and Israeli vessels (if there are any) because they would get immediate strikes back.
More crazy talk from you.

The only British thing about the ship they seized from international waters is it had a british flag but the crew and ownership is in fact international.
We cannot impound another sovereign nation’s vessel. It is an aggressive act. Countries have their equipment in other countries’ range and are escorted out or asked to leave. For example, Russian military jets have entered British airspace so many times and were escorted out by the RAF. We did not impound Russian aircraft because we know we don't want Putin to level our nation.

If the only thing British about the ship was the flag, then why are we getting excited? Come on? Surely, you don't believe that nonsense? The ship is owned by a British firm and some of the personnel (if not all) are British. Unless you are disowning British citizens.

My view is this was a clear tit for tat exercise. We are trying to make it look bigger than it actually is and in the process making a fool of ourselves. It happened with the Iranian journalist, who was jailed. We made so much fuss until we let Iran to imprison her for 4 years.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Iran illegally took control of the British-flagged vessel, that was in international waters. The UK legally took took control of a vessel in near Gibraltar.

Iran's actions amount to piracy. The vessel had every right to defend itself. Luckily, they didn't assert that right, or this would have ended very badly.


Again, one was legal under international law, and one wasn't.


Funny.
This was tit for tat and we should not impound vessels of other sovereign nations.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
We cannot impound another sovereign nation’s vessel. It is an aggressive act. Countries have their equipment in other countries’ range and are escorted out or asked to leave. For example, Russian military jets have entered British airspace so many times and were escorted out by the RAF. We did not impound Russian aircraft because we know we don't want Putin to level our nation.

If the only thing British about the ship was the flag, then why are we getting excited? Come on? Surely, you don't believe that nonsense? The ship is owned by a British firm and some of the personnel (if not all) are British. Unless you are disowning British citizens.

My view is this was a clear tit for tat exercise. We are trying to make it look bigger than it actually is and in the process making a fool of ourselves. It happened with the Iranian journalist, who was jailed. We made so much fuss until we let Iran to imprison her for 4 years.
1. Russian jets do not enter UK airspace. Go and check. The rest of your paragraph is meaningless.
2. If a vessel enters UK waters then they are under UK jurisdiction. In this case they believe the vessel was sanction busting, so they are perfectly within their rights to detain. That is lawful.
3. If a vessel is in international waters then a country has no jurisdiction except in limited circumstances. If the tanker had gone into Iranian waters that would be different.
4. Stena is a Swedish company. You clearly dont know anything about merchant shipping or maritime law. Like most crews to save costs they employ Indians, Ukrainians Filipinos to crew the ships. Lower salaries less workers rights. I am not getting that excited although Iran committed an illegal act. If the British are sensible they will just carry on and not engage the Iranians. Each future ship the Iranians seize from international waters will just strengthen support for the Americans till both sides get the war they keep going on about.
5. This is why its pointless wasting time on you wired. They arent British citizens but a mix of Russians, Ukranians and Indians. They are on a British flagged ship, but that doesnt mean a whole lot. Not that I am expecting you to know the difference.
6. Your view as usual is hopelessly incorrect and based on your own lack of understanding of what has happened and international maritime law.
All Iran has done is worsen relations with the UK, which they will then pass onto their allies.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by 999tigger)
1. Russian jets do not enter UK airspace. Go and check. The rest of your paragraph is meaningless.
2. If a vessel enters UK waters then they are under UK jurisdiction. In this case they believe the vessel was sanction busting, so they are perfectly within their rights to detain. That is lawful.
3. If a vessel is in international waters then a country has no jurisdiction except in limited circumstances. If the tanker had gone into Iranian waters that would be different.
4. Stena is a Swedish company. You clearly dont know anything about merchant shipping or maritime law. Like most crews to save costs they employ Indians, Ukrainians Filipinos to crew the ships. Lower salaries less workers rights. I am not getting that excited although Iran committed an illegal act. If the British are sensible they will just carry on and not engage the Iranians. Each future ship the Iranians seize from international waters will just strengthen support for the Americans till both sides get the war they keep going on about.
5. This is why its pointless wasting time on you wired. They arent British citizens but a mix of Russians, Ukranians and Indians. They are on a British flagged ship, but that doesnt mean a whole lot. Not that I am expecting you to know the difference.
6. Your view as usual is hopelessly incorrect and based on your own lack of understanding of what has happened and international maritime law.
All Iran has done is worsen relations with the UK, which they will then pass onto their allies.
Okay. You either don't know what you are talking about or refuse to acknowledge it. Russian jets enter UK airspace several times. A simple google search would have educated you.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...y-in-a-row/amp

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles...the-north-sea/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32740942

We can’t have it both ways. If the tanker is Swedish and the crew non-British, then why are we getting excited? Why did Jeremy Hunt clearly condemn Iran’s acts and label them as aggression? Why did the Government hold a Cobra meeting to respond to Iran’s aggression?

The media and Government are clearly calling the vessel a British vessel. So it is either the Government and media don't know what they are talking about or you, with respect, don't know what you are talking about.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...uk-ship-latest

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globaln...-response/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.exp...-usa-trump/amp

I think you have tried to use deflective tactics. I think you should at least try to investigate further. Everyone is saying that this was direct aggression towards the UK, but you seem to make contradictory points.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Okay. You either don't know what you are talking about or refuse to acknowledge it. Russian jets enter UK airspace several times. A simple google search would have educated you.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...y-in-a-row/amp

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles...the-north-sea/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32740942

We can’t have it both ways. If the tanker is Swedish and the crew non-British, then why are we getting excited? Why did Jeremy Hunt clearly condemn Iran’s acts and label them as aggression? Why did the Government hold a Cobra meeting to respond to Iran’s aggression?

The media and Government are clearly calling the vessel a British vessel. So it is either the Government and media don't know what they are talking about or you, with respect, don't know what you are talking about.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...uk-ship-latest

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globaln...-response/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.exp...-usa-trump/amp

I think you have tried to use deflective tactics. I think you should at least try to investigate further. Everyone is saying that this was direct aggression towards the UK, but you seem to make contradictory points.
1. Try reading your own articles. They are intercepted and warned off before they reach UK airspace. This is standard practice.

The RAF worked closely with NATO partners to monitor the Russian aircraft as they passed through a variety of international airspace before they were intercepted over the North Sea. Our fighters escorted them from the UK’s area of interest and ensured that they did not enter UK sovereign airspace.

2. Do you study maritime law or international law? It is a British flag shipped registered to the UK, but ultimately the owners are Swedish and the crew is mostly Indian. Do you understand the difference? Clearly you do not. You show me any part where they are UK citizens? Do you understand about maritime law and merchant ship flagging?

Why are we getting excited? Because Iran has acted illegally by pirating a law abiding ship in INTERNATIONAL waters. Do you even understand the difference between international and sovereign waters?
Ofc they would have a cobra meeting. They arent going to do anything though because the Brits dont have powerful enough forces. If Iran illegally closed down the straits of Hormuz then that is a serious issue and the UK government will be deciding what its response might be. I hope they stay out and let Iran close the straits and keep hijacking ships, then other nations will take it into their own hands and having a British flagged ship will be the least of their troubles.

3. I havent used any deflective tactics, just told you the truth of what the legal position is, whereas its clear you dont understand the issues and law behind the events that are happening. I dont see why the UK should speak up for Iran, quite the opposite now. Let them sort out their issues with America.
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Russian jets enter UK airspace several times. A simple google search would have educated you.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...y-in-a-row/amp

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles...the-north-sea/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32740942
None of your links says what you think it says. Those aircraft are variously described as flying towards sovereign British airspace, approaching it or being intercepted before they could enter it. None entered it. There is a difference between a sphere of interest and sovereign airspace. NATO airspace is the former; legally it means nothing.
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the bear
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Iran illegally took control of the British-flagged vessel, that was in international waters. The UK legally took took control of a vessel in near Gibraltar.

Iran's actions amount to piracy. The vessel had every right to defend itself. Luckily, they didn't assert that right, or this would have ended very badly.


Again, one was legal under international law, and one wasn't.


Funny.
exactly.

uk = policeman

iran = pirate
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
If the tanker is Swedish and the crew non-British, then why are we getting excited?
Because it is a British-registered vessel. It is Swedish-owned, crewed by various other nationalities. No Britons are involved. The reliable media are describing it as British-linked or British-0registered, which is accurate. The Iranians probably neither knew not cared what the ownership or crew was. They merely saw the red duster.

One does wonder how the Iranians will deal with the Russians who won't be very pleased at the detention of their nationals.
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