When debating remainers Watch

Alt Tankie
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Just a tip for brexiteerrs: although I happen to agree with remainers about our economy worsening under brexit, most liberal left remainees aren’t actually chiefly concerned by the economy but by moralistic concerns eg they see the eurosceptic movement as intrinsically part of the far right and want to stop it no matter what. If one day the likes of Orban or Salvini were in charge of the EU you can be sure that many if not all liberal labour supporters,,Lib Dem’s and Green Party members would pivot towards Brexit regardless of the economic cost .

The same will be true of any Trump Deal. Therefore even if Theoretically it was true that brexit will be an economic success and you had indisputable facts to prove it, you would not win most of them over.

The liberal left have become reactionary as they can sense their beliefs are under threat and are losing their popular support. There are many reasons why this is the case but one is that they have lost their radicalism- instead of defining themselves as the opposite of Farage (wise in some cases as that may be) they should instead make their own arguments as to what a genuinely left wing alternative should look like.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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we need a communistic revolution to topple the ruling classes now more than ever

we have nothing to lose but our chains
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ByEeek
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
we need a communistic revolution to topple the ruling classes now more than ever

we have nothing to lose but our chains
Communism removes your chains???? Seriously? Why not go to school and start bettering your own life rather than waiting for someone else to do it?

PS Life is hard. As soon as you embrace that simple fact, life is pretty good in the UK. Brexiteers seem to have lost sight of this simple fact. The grass isn't greener on the other side.

BTW, what do Brexiteers make of Tescos recent Brexit related price hike?
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Communism removes your chains???? Seriously? Why not go to school and start bettering your own life rather than waiting for someone else to do it?

PS Life is hard. As soon as you embrace that simple fact, life is pretty good in the UK. Brexiteers seem to have lost sight of this simple fact. The grass isn't greener on the other side.

BTW, what do Brexiteers make of Tescos recent Brexit related price hike?
(sarcasm in italics - should have made it clearer that i wasn't a commie, better dead than red )
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ByEeek
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
(sarcasm in italics - should have made it clearer that i wasn't a commie, better dead than red )
My bad. You get all sorts on here. So if it is better dead than red, where do I stand by wanting good education and healthcare in this country?
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by ByEeek)
BTW, what do Brexiteers make of Tescos recent Brexit related price hike?
Uncertainty is all it can be because we haven't left yet, Brexit has not yet happened!

I think that brexit uncertainty is causing great harm, I've been consistent with this. When all the TSR remaniac's were jumping for joy at the extension, I said this would happen and it was the worst possible outcome. But its all been created by remainer parliamentarians who are frustrating the process. We would of left with a deal now if hard core remainers was not over represented in Parliament!

Remainers now have an open checkbook to cause as much misery as they can and divert all blame to Brexit!
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Burton Bridge
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When debating remainers...... Expect to be insulted told you are stupid, racist and uneducated with no logical explanation. Also dispite remaining clarm and reserved don't expect that hard core person
to listen/understand to you're reply.


Thats about it Alt Tankie
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 4 weeks ago
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Burridge
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Just a tip for brexiteerrs: although I happen to agree with remainers about our economy worsening under brexit, most liberal left remainees aren’t actually chiefly concerned by the economy but by moralistic concerns eg they see the eurosceptic movement as intrinsically part of the far right and want to stop it no matter what. If one day the likes of Orban or Salvini were in charge of the EU you can be sure that many if not all liberal labour supporters,,Lib Dem’s and Green Party members would pivot towards Brexit regardless of the economic cost .

The same will be true of any Trump Deal. Therefore even if Theoretically it was true that brexit will be an economic success and you had indisputable facts to prove it, you would not win most of them over.

The liberal left have become reactionary as they can sense their beliefs are under threat and are losing their popular support. There are many reasons why this is the case but one is that they have lost their radicalism- instead of defining themselves as the opposite of Farage (wise in some cases as that may be) they should instead make their own arguments as to what a genuinely left wing alternative should look like.
I think this is probably true for a great deal of remainers. But a flip argument that mirrors this one can be made about leavers as well.

Most leavers aren't concerned about the economy, they're primarily interested in reducing immigration & 'returning sovereignty' (a phase I deplore!) - but will do so at any cost. Hence the recent polling of Conservative party members which found that they would sacrifice the union & their own party in the name of Brexit; that's not because they're so committed to reducing immigration that they'd like to see the destruction of the union, its because they've become so emotionally attached to their politics that they want their cause achieved under any circumstances.

In the past 3 years theres been a rise of this drippy & nostalgic mentality about "rule Britannia", "we defeated the Germans once before", "we've survived rationing, we can get through Brexit" etc. The argument is now devoid of facts. This goes beyond patriotism - the debate has become shamefully warped. Johnson wrote a piece in the Telegraph over the weekend comparing Brexit to the struggles of landing man on the moon - arguing that all we need is a 'can do attitude'.

A can do attitude.

https://guce.huffingtonpost.co.uk/co...lse&lang=en-gb

So as much as there is no convincing some remainers, you'll find that the same is true for many leavers. The argument has become too ostracised and emotionally charged.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Uncertainty is all it can be because we haven't left yet, Brexit has not yet happened!
Gosh. My understanding was that it was due to the pound having devalued by 15% since 2016. Absorbed so far by profit margins and hedging.
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Capitalist_Lamb
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Pepe will not be pleased

Sad Pepe
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
we need a communistic revolution to topple the ruling classes now more than ever

we have nothing to lose but our chains
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Burridge
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
But its all been created by remainer parliamentarians who are frustrating the process. We would of left with a deal now if hard core remainers was not over represented in Parliament!
That's right - parliament is so full of hard core remainers committed to frustrating the process that they voted 498 - 114 in favour of enacting Article 50. That's some fuzzy-logic! A deal was presented to parlimanent and was opposed by all sides of the House - remainers and leavers. The ERG opposed the Chequers deal - so themselves have rejected the best opportunity to leave the EU with a deal. Have they not also frustrated the process?

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
When debating remainers...... Expect to be insulted told you are stupid, racist and uneducated with no logical explanation. Also dispite remaining clarm and reserved don't expect that hard core person
to listen/understand to you're reply.


Thats about it Alt Tankie
Let's not pretend that the insults only go one way. Be prepared to be mocked as a traitor, called unpatriotic, & a sellout if you come up against a leaver who wishes to introduce the ad hominem!
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Burridge)
That's right - parliament is so full of hard core remainers committed to frustrating the process that they voted 498 - 114 in favour of enacting Article 50. That's some fuzzy-logic! A deal was presented to parlimanent and was opposed by all sides of the House - remainers and leavers. The ERG opposed the Chequers deal - so themselves have rejected the best opportunity to leave the EU with a deal. Have they not also frustrated the process?



Let's not pretend that the insults only go one way. Be prepared to be mocked as a traitor, called unpatriotic, & a sellout if you come up against a leaver who wishes to introduce the ad hominem!
Yes this is correct, there are idiots on both sides of the debate I agree with you. Unfortunately remain has more of these people in positions of power, as you just point out - 114 of them voted against triggering artical 50 in the first place! I'm not so sure the idiots of the Leave campaign have any parliamentary reputation, thankfully the Tommy Robinson EDL types have no parliamentary representative.


Look at the facts Cheques was scrapped by Theresa May, it never went to a meaningful vote! TM is a remainer parliamentarian so I'm not having that, The Canada style deal was stopped by Theresa May again a remainer, now the Canada style deal was supported by the ERG so that's fuzzy logic you are using once more! While you are correct about mays deal mk 1 and 2. The exit agreement, previously backed by labour's remain heavy parliamentarians was rejected again by remainers! As I said remainer frustrated the process.

Brexiteers frustrating the process? well if they had not been swept aside I believe it would of all been done now, so no I don't think so but that's open to debate.
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Burridge
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Yes this is correct, there are idiots on both sides of the debate I agree with you. Unfortunately remain has more of these people in positions of power, as you just point out - 114 of them voted against triggering artical 50 in the first place! I'm not so sure the idiots of the Leave campaign have any parliamentary reputation, thankfully the Tommy Robinson EDL types have no parliamentary representative.


Look at the facts Cheques was scrapped by Theresa May, it never went to a meaningful vote! TM is a remainer parliamentarian so I'm not having that, The Canada style deal was stopped by Theresa May again a remainer, now the Canada style deal was supported by the ERG so that's fuzzy logic you are using once more! While you are correct about mays deal mk 1 and 2. The exit agreement, previously backed by labour's remain heavy parliamentarians was rejected again by remainers! As I said remainer frustrated the process.

Brexiteers frustrating the process? well if they had not been swept aside I believe it would of all been done now, so no I don't think so but that's open to debate.
I imagine most of the 114 disagreed with the timing of enacting Article 50. It seems pretty well established with hindsight that A50 was triggered far too early, with no plan or framework for exiting the EU being established. Within this 114 there will be a few dozen hardcore remainers - hardly the pro-remain takeover that people like to infer. I'd say less than 10% of MPs are hellbent on blindly remaining in the EU under any and every circumstance; the number of hellbent militant Brexiteers probably far outweighs this. And one of them is about to become our Prime Minister.

The ERG is undoubtedly the most powerful party-within-a-party in Parliament. Far exceeding the influence of Momentum, this hard-core, backward looking, & highly secretive faction has its own whipping operation and is determined to achieve an any-cost Brexit. In February last year, 62 ERG members signed a letter (including now Chairman JRM) listing their demands - which included a WTO implementation period. Jacob Rees-Mogg has been the front-man of a media campaign over recent months that has sought to downplay the risks of the no-deal Brexit, instead hyping up the possibility of trading under WTO terms.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...chuck-chequers
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/0...etter-in-full/

The Canada-EU trade deal took 7 years to agree and though it may have led to tariff-free trade on most goods, there's is next to no regulatory aligned between the two. The service sector - which represents upwards of 80% of the British economy - would be heavily impacted in a Canada style deal; resulting in an economy that would be almost 7% smaller in 15 years than remaining (which is only 2% short of a no-deal Brexit), as per the FT.

https://www.ft.com/content/4849bf68-...4-d150b3105d21

Like I said, this is a representative democracy where we elect officials to make informed decisions on our behalf. The 2016 referendum demonstrated a slim majority supported leaving the EU (though now the numbers look to have reversed); but offered no vision about the style or type of Brexit that people wanted - that is where Parliament comes in. The public offered the direction that they wanted the country to head - and Parliament has the responsibility of ironing out the detail. Theres so much infighting, not just between leavers and reaminers, but also remainers & remainers and leavers & leavers. It's just not the simple case of 'remainers doing their best to overturn the will of the people' that we see & hear so often in the media (of which the Leave camp has considerable support & influence), on social media, or even on this forum. The issue is far too divisive and has split the entire country, not just Parliament.

The reality is that though most MPs voted remain (circa 80% I think), most now wish to see Brexit delivered - hence the A50 vote. But they wish to see a vision of Brexit that is based upon consensus and is in the interests of their constituents and the wider-country.
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Alt Tankie
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ByEeek and all other remainers that want to take part in this topic: Answer my questions, then I’ll answer any of yours


Would you vote to remain in the EU if it was headed by Salvini or Orban?

If we leave the EU without a deal and our economy is dire, would you support s free trade deal with the US if the EU refuses to renegotiate with us for some time?
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Burridge
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
If we leave the EU without a deal and our economy is dire, would you support s free trade deal with the US if the EU refuses to renegotiate with us for some time?
1. Odd question. There's no conceivable way of that happening within the next few years, and if it were to happen, the EU as institution would have to be drastically different to the institution it is now - how different it is would entirely impact the answer I'd to your question. On the face of it I'd say no.

Would you vote to remain if the EU was headed by Farage or Rees-Mogg?

2. I'd much rather seek a deal with the EU than the USA. We've developed a close and unique relationship with the EU over the past 40 years - economically and legally - I'd do my upmost to ensure that this relationship can continue to thrive. But if our relationship with the EU became so fractured that there was no chance of achieving a deal for "some time" (whatever that even means - 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?) I'd weigh up the implications of this in the circumstances and perhaps seek a trade deal with the US. Either way, I'm not an economist or a trade expert, so I'm not really in a position to judge this.
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by Burridge)
I think this is probably true for a great deal of remainers. But a flip argument that mirrors this one can be made about leavers as well.

Most leavers aren't concerned about the economy, they're primarily interested in reducing immigration & 'returning sovereignty' (a phase I deplore!) - but will do so at any cost. Hence the recent polling of Conservative party members which found that they would sacrifice the union & their own party in the name of Brexit; that's not because they're so committed to reducing immigration that they'd like to see the destruction of the union, its because they've become so emotionally attached to their politics that they want their cause achieved under any circumstances.

In the past 3 years theres been a rise of this drippy & nostalgic mentality about "rule Britannia", "we defeated the Germans once before", "we've survived rationing, we can get through Brexit" etc. The argument is now devoid of facts. This goes beyond patriotism - the debate has become shamefully warped. Johnson wrote a piece in the Telegraph over the weekend comparing Brexit to the struggles of landing man on the moon - arguing that all we need is a 'can do attitude'.

A can do attitude.

https://guce.huffingtonpost.co.uk/co...lse&lang=en-gb

So as much as there is no convincing some remainers, you'll find that the same is true for many leavers. The argument has become too ostracised and emotionally charged.
I can agree with all of that. Two things though.

1: Parliament promises a referendum and was given. Leave won.

2: This is a class issue with the working class emphatically voting leave and this is being overturned by elites who think they know better (even if the actually do)

If you refuse to go understand these facts then further dialogue is pointless.

So when framed through this perspective where you have privileged telling the dirty plebs that actually they didn’t like the way they voted, I think an emotional reaction is quite justified.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Therefore even if Theoretically it was true that brexit will be an economic success and you had indisputable facts to prove it, you would not win most of them over.
Er... the opposite could be said too though. Even if there are indisputable facts to prove that Brexit (or, more likely, a no-deal Brexit) will be an economic failure you will not win over most Leavers. Brexit is like a religion to many of them and they'll be firm on their beliefs whatever you tell them.

You've also said "they can sense their beliefs are under thread and [the left] are losing their popular support" but the opposite holds true again; it's one of the main reasons hardcore leavers are so terrified of a second referendum, even though it makes perfect sense to have one to resolve the current deadlock.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Gosh. My understanding was that it was due to the pound having devalued by 15% since 2016. Absorbed so far by profit margins and hedging.
Not entirely true, it's partly due to the weakening of the pound
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49048822

But can you please provide a specific breakdown of which of the 1000 plus lines which are on the rise are directly as a result of this and how many are down to other outside influences, stuff like this from Reuters.

Non-perishable food prices rose at the highest rate since February 2013, up 3.4 percent on the year - a sharp increase on February's rate of 1.5 percent. A global rise in cereals prices and unfavourable conditions for onions, potatoes and cabbages in Britain last year had pushed up wholesale prices, the BRC said.2 Apr 2019

https://uk.reuters.com › article

Can you also please explain how the prices of over 120 lines have been reduced even with the weak pound.
Please stop trying to pass off everything bad as being directly and entirely down to brexit.
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Alexty28
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If you voted for BREXIT you are a white supremacist, end of story. I do not have to back up my argument with facts nor have a reasonable debate. Because I do not reason with people who are worse than the Nazis. The only reason you support BREXIT is because you hate all immigrants and hate all other European countries, you bigots. It has nothing to do with sovereignty or the EU undermining Westminster, it's just you being a racist, white supremacist, Nazi. We need to create a European state, even though there are 24 official languages across the EU and completely different cultures and political systems. The only way we can end racism and white supremacy is by creating the United States of Europe.

I will not argue with any old, working class, uneducated Nazis who voted for BREXIT, I have a degree you know. It might not have anything to do with politics and/or economics, but the fact I have a degree means I know whats best for you.
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Justanotheranon6
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Just a tip for brexiteerrs: although I happen to agree with remainers about our economy worsening under brexit, most liberal left remainees aren’t actually chiefly concerned by the economy but by moralistic concerns eg they see the eurosceptic movement as intrinsically part of the far right and want to stop it no matter what. If one day the likes of Orban or Salvini were in charge of the EU you can be sure that many if not all liberal labour supporters,,Lib Dem’s and Green Party members would pivot towards Brexit regardless of the economic cost .

The same will be true of any Trump Deal. Therefore even if Theoretically it was true that brexit will be an economic success and you had indisputable facts to prove it, you would not win most of them over.

The liberal left have become reactionary as they can sense their beliefs are under threat and are losing their popular support. There are many reasons why this is the case but one is that they have lost their radicalism- instead of defining themselves as the opposite of Farage (wise in some cases as that may be) they should instead make their own arguments as to what a genuinely left wing alternative should look like.
Hey, I know quite a few remainders, not all of them are left wing. They always state economic reasons for not wanting brexit, they point out the problems and political and economic turmoil that it’s caused so far. They also reference the idea that many voters were tricked into brexit, ie the vans talking about using the money to fund the nhs. In sharp contrast, all the brexiteers only mention immigration.

Idk what I believe, that’s just my experience with both ends of the spectrum.
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