Time for Labour to get a new leadership Watch

tenacity
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#81
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#81
(Original post by MJlover)
Yeah my comment was more contextualized to current political affairs. I think people have had enough of labour not being LABOUR but a tory-lite neo-liberal party that does extend some socially aware policies but doesn't offer grand, thorough structural reform against inequality.

I think income inequality and its transmuted many types of socioeconomic disenfranchisement cannot be solved by Blairite types.

Can't say much about Atlee, I just know that the NHS was founded under his leadership. So thats good.
What 'grand, thorough structural reform' would you suggest?

The idea that Blairites were soft Tories underestimates both the ambition of Blair and Brown's policies at the time and the draconianism of the Tory party. The minimum wage, freedom of information, the Human Rights Act, gender equality legislation, banning the legal rape of wives by husbands, the Good Friday Agreement, gay partnerships and the equalisation of the legal age for gay sex, lifted millions out of poverty... the list goes on and on and on. He produced an oeuvre of statutes shaped by one coherent political philosophy and they have mostly remained in place in some form ever since.

The Tories would have likely done none of these things between 97 and 07. Blair did not just win three elections, he took huge strides to change this country for the better from a resolutely centre-left perspective.

Corbyn will leave behind absolutely nothing except a career defined by lazily researched virtue-signalling and thousands of selfies with his adoring, imbecilic fans.
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Alt Tankie
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#82
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#82
(Original post by londonmyst)
I grew up with the revolutionaries and was almost deafened by their noise nuisance for 18 years.
I understand what the term "tankie" means.
I don't consider any of the current Labour headship remotely entertaining or their antics to be a laughing matter.
Ok... what has that got to do with the above?

I don’t see what your parents have to do with anything, unless you hate them and blame their politics? Maybe go and see a counsellor?
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Alt Tankie
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#83
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#83
(Original post by tenacity)
What 'grand, thorough structural reform' would you suggest?

The idea that Blairites were soft Tories underestimates both the ambition of Blair and Brown's policies at the time and the draconianism of the Tory party. The minimum wage, freedom of information, the Human Rights Act, gender equality legislation, banning the legal rape of wives by husbands, the Good Friday Agreement, gay partnerships and the equalisation of the legal age for gay sex, lifted millions out of poverty... the list goes on and on and on. He produced an oeuvre of statutes shaped by one coherent political philosophy.

The Tories would have likely done none of these things between 97 and 07. Blair did not just win three elections, he took huge strides to change this country for the better from a resolutely centre-left perspective.

Corbyn will leave behind absolutely nothing except a career defined by lazily researched virtue-signalling and thousands of selfies with his adoring, imbecilic fans.
I can tell you one thing that Corbyn won’t do. He won’t lead our country into costly foreign wars killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. But I suppose that’s just a side note ??
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MJlover
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#84
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#84
I appreciate the liberal policies in terms of social rights and civil liberties that you have listed here.

Yet I think Corbyn will add to that legacy in dismantling social inequality at its roots as shown in his manifesto for social care changes, like having a national social care service and a strong commitment to helping, not just pacifying over the issues of, those marginalized by the last decade of Tory rule.

This includes much needed reform to welfare/benefits/social services - scrapping Universal Credit, NHS privatisation, tuition fees and nationalizing industries that should rightly be under the control of the public.

(Original post by tenacity)
What 'grand, thorough structural reform' would you suggest?

The idea that Blairites were soft Tories underestimates both the ambition of Blair and Brown's policies at the time and the draconianism of the Tory party. The minimum wage, freedom of information, the Human Rights Act, gender equality legislation, banning the legal rape of wives by husbands, the Good Friday Agreement, gay partnerships and the equalisation of the legal age for gay sex, lifted millions out of poverty... the list goes on and on and on. He produced an oeuvre of statutes shaped by one coherent political philosophy and they have mostly remained in place in some form ever since.

The Tories would have likely done none of these things between 97 and 07. Blair did not just win three elections, he took huge strides to change this country for the better from a resolutely centre-left perspective.

Corbyn will leave behind absolutely nothing except a career defined by lazily researched virtue-signalling and thousands of selfies with his adoring, imbecilic fans.
Last edited by MJlover; 4 weeks ago
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Alt Tankie
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#85
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#85
Blair won 3 elections I don’t care how many civilians he blew up!!!1!!
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londonmyst
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Ok... what has that got to do with the above?

I don’t see what your parents have to do with anything, unless you hate them and blame their politics? Maybe go and see a counsellor?
I think you have a romantic, utopian view of revolutionary socialists/marxists.
Nothing like a bit of practical experience to broaden your horizons.

Get to know a few trots, swp, uaf, marxists and members of the communist party.
Then you will understand the revolutionary agenda and their typical tactics.
Very few positive elements there.
An abundance of of conspiracy theorists, sinister cranks and quite a few like the troll I've already greeted on this thread.
The one with the off-topic rant about "Zionist shills", "Jewish Oligarchs" and Israel.
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MJlover
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#87
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#87
Yeah, its a vicious cycle. Neocon after neoliberal occupying the highest level of political office...
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Blair won 3 elections I don’t care how many civilians he blew up!!!1!!
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Alt Tankie
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#88
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(Original post by londonmyst)
I think you have a romantic, utopian view of revolutionary socialists/marxists.
Nothing like a bit of practical experience to broaden your horizons.

Get to know a few trots, swp, uaf, marxists and members of the communist party.
Then you will understand the revolutionary agenda and their typical tactics.
Very few positive elements there.
An abundance of of conspiracy theorists, sinister cranks and quite a few like the troll I've already greeted on this thread.
The one with the off-topic rant about "Zionist shills", "Jewish Oligarchs" and Israel.
The Israel lobby is a real phenomenon. I have met with many communists. Some are cranks and weirdos but so are a lot of people in politics. As communists have typically been persecuted - even in the U.K. this is pretty understandable
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AperfectBalance
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#89
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#89
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Where, abroad eg Venezuela or at home or both?

Why?

As a communist i’m sympathetic to genuine revolutionary movements obviously. Abroad, definitely not unless they represent a direct threat and have already declared war or commenced hostilities.
At home first preferably. Well democracy has failed, when you give this much power (arguably not that much) power to people you get what we had, Just look around at the people and ask yourself if you want those people having a vote or a say in anything, people wouldnt care if we lived under a dictatorship but had a wonderful life, they just view democracy as some sacred cow.
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Alt Tankie
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#90
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(Original post by MJlover)
Yeah, its a vicious cycle. Neocon after neoliberal occupying the highest level of political office...
PRSOM.

Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing the collective meltdown of people like Gove or Dan Hodges if Corbyn gets into office.,.
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MJlover
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#91
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This
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
PRSOM.

Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing the collective meltdown of people like Gove or Dan Hodges if Corbyn gets into office.,.
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Alt Tankie
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#92
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
At home first preferably. Well democracy has failed, when you give this much power (arguably not that much) power to people you get what we had, Just look around at the people and ask yourself if you want those people having a vote or a say in anything, people wouldnt care if we lived under a dictatorship but had a wonderful life, they just view democracy as some sacred cow.
Ah that’s a trick though. Democracy works, people generally get it right if they have the option - eg Brexit.

The problem is Liberal ‘democracy’ which is specifically designed to stop people doing what they want by elites.
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AperfectBalance
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#93
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#93
People need to be guided heavily democracy does not work.
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nulli tertius
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#94
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Miliband is recent, people barely remember Blair and he’s about as popular as ebola.
The average age for voters is nearly 50. In other words the average voter might struggle to remember Harold Wilson, but would have no problem with Jim Callaghan, let alone Thatcher, Major or Blair.

Blair was so unpopular that 9.5 million people voted Labour in 2005 after the invasion of Iraq.
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tenacity
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#95
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
The average age for voters is nearly 50. In other words the average voter might struggle to remember Harold Wilson, but would have no problem with Jim Callaghan, let alone Thatcher, Major or Blair.

Blair was so unpopular that 9.5 million people voted Labour in 2005 after the invasion of Iraq.
Out of interest, did you ever vote for him?
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nulli tertius
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#96
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(Original post by tenacity)
Out of interest, did you ever vote for him?
Far too young for Callaghan. First time I voted would have been the 1984 local elections; probably failing to oust

https://www.politics.ox.ac.uk/academ...in-mclean.html

from Central Ward.

I didn’t vote for Blair. First time I voted anything other than Tory was this year’s local elections.
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Fullofsurprises
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#97
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#97
(Original post by nulli tertius)
I didn’t vote for Blair. First time I voted anything other than Tory was this year’s local elections.
The Brexit Party? :eek4:

Hope not, I have you down as a centrist sort of C of E-ish one nation type.
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Alt Tankie
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#98
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Far too young for Callaghan. First time I voted would have been the 1984 local elections; probably failing to oust

https://www.politics.ox.ac.uk/academ...in-mclean.html

from Central Ward.

I didn’t vote for Blair. First time I voted anything other than Tory was this year’s local elections.
So you’re a Tory.

Look if you like Blair great, more power to you. A lot of people on the Tory party also like Blair- eg May, Gove etc. Peter Hitchens even said that Blairism was successfully transferred to the Tory party (although that’s probably no longer the case now)

But please understand that understand that for many of the reasons Blair is appealing for Tories is why so many labour voters now despise him and have chosen to replace him and his followers with someone more appealing to us.

As a Tory how would you feel if there was a Tory prime minister who agrees with Corbyn on economics and foreign policy who raised taxes and scrapped trident say? And labour voters were telling you what s great job they are doing?
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Fullofsurprises
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#99
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
So you’re a Tory.

Look if you like Blair great, more power to you. A lot of people on the Tory party also like Blair- eg May, Gove etc. Peter Hitchens even said that Blairism was successfully transferred to the Tory party (although that’s probably no longer the case now)

But please understand that understand that for many of the reasons Blair is appealing for Tories is why so many labour voters now despise him and have chosen to replace him and his followers with someone more appealing to us.

As a Tory how would you feel if there was a Tory prime minister who agrees with Corbyn on economics and foreign policy who raised taxes and scrapped trident say? And labour voters were telling you what s great job they are doing?
Blair was often more leftish than Brown, especially during the earlier years - Brown's pose as the true leftie desperate to remove the awful rightist Blair so he could return Labour to the correct course was just that - a pose. I would recommend reading the Campbell diaries on this - I know he isn't regarded as a trustworthy source by the Momentum-oriented folk, but it's all there. Blair's Big Crime was aligning with GW Bush too closely after 9/11. I find it difficult to know how else he could have acted at that time. The US was in a mood to crush anyone who got in the way with their unchallenged superpower vengeance. We would at the very least have been marked well down as an ally. That might have suited many on the harder left, but would it have been good for the people of the UK? Blair also repeatedly tried to raise the obvious defects in the Iraq planning - these were ignored in DC, perhaps demonstrating the futility of the so-called Special Relationship, but at least he tried. The low point was the dodgy dossier and that is pretty indefensible. By then Blair was boxed in by his own decisions.

Hitchens is a little bit barking on Blairism. He convinced himself that it's all a Eurocommunist plot, something he mainly I suspect based on Blair's use of the phrase 'Third Way' which had a lot more to do with Clintonism and the US democrats than with Italian Gramschi-ists and their alleged grip on the EU.
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Drewski
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#100
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The Left don't like Blair because he won.

He won two huge landslides, proving that the majority of the population aren't where the hard left want them to be, which is what they hate.

Is it any wonder why the Tories partly followed his ideas (even if only temporarily)? Those ideas worked. And they won, again.

Brown won off the back of what he'd done, and then Cameron kinda won doing the same thing. Essentially, Blairism won 4 GEs in a row and the left despises that level of success...
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