Will Scotland vote for independence? Watch

SMEGGGY
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#41
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#41
There will not be another referendum. They had one, they lost. The ****ing END
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Alt Tankie
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#42
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(Original post by L i b)
Scotland's part of a country called the United Kingdom. It was not a British possession, it was never a colony - it is part of the mother country that had an empire, and now has a small selection of little outposts like Bermuda and Gibraltar.

The empire has nothing to do with the constitutional construction of the United Kingdom, which is a country not an empire.
Scotland (or rather it’s elites) were bribed/ cajoled into joining the U.K. by England. It might not have been the outright colonisation of say India but it was a harbinger of the economic colonialism which we see alive and kicking today where elites are bought and paid for to go against the wishes of the masses e.g Greece, Italy, Venezuela, Iran etc
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BeetRoots
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#43
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(Original post by SMEGGGY)
There will not be another referendum. They had one, they lost. The ****ing END
As time goes by, as circumstances change, so views change, the values of one generation are not automatically shared by the next. So, there certainly can be another vote on independence and should there be one the consequences of Brexit' might figure large. Scotland has for some time been a nation among many in the EU. Now Scotland is on the verge of once again being under the domination of England. If I was Scottish I know what I'd want.
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imlikeahermit
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#44
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(Original post by Quady)
To your first question
Once independent we will be able to raise or lower national insurance rates and thresholds. That outweighs no longer being part of NATO.

To your second question
The pound will fall which will make our exports cheaper and more competitive. So it isn't a fact they will be less competatively priced.

To your third point
Ok, so what is a mandate? Does that apply just to that referendum (which actually isn't the subject of this thread) or to all votes? Does it apply to sports too? Did Man City actually win the English Premier League last season?
1. I would argue that national insurance rates in the grand scheme of things pale in significance to the job losses that have been predicted, and yes I say predicted. But Jeremy Hunt sat on Politics Sunday a couple of weeks ago and basically said that was par for the course, so **** it, national insurance rates can be set, but we’ll have less people employed to pay them...

2. So you’re willing to accept that as a result of brexit, the pound will fall... interesting, things will be cheaper to export, however what about importing, or are you one of these who thinks that we can survive without importing things because we’re good ol’ Britain! Most of the goods we export need imports in the first place to manufacture, therefore the price of the goods to manufacture goes up... now given that the pound will fall, making them cheaper, what goes first? Jobs, or the companies themselves? How many warnings about jobs do you people need?

3. To me, a mandate is a clear instruction by the people to act upon something, if 100% of this country voted, that is a clear mandate. 100% did not, and then you have the argument that it’s 51-49. If it was 70:30 fair play, but 51/49 is and should never have been enough. The fact that you then bring the premier league into that is the most petty argument I have heard on this forum. We’re liverpool lied to which cost them the championship? No. The people who voted for brexit were lied to, plain and simple. Lied to by the people who brexit will hardly effect, those that have money. And the idiots that voted for it, the working classes, will be hit hardest, and they’ll only have themselves to blame! Cannot wait for it to go tits up in Sunderland!
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Quady
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#45
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
1. I would argue that national insurance rates in the grand scheme of things pale in significance to the job losses that have been predicted, and yes I say predicted. But Jeremy Hunt sat on Politics Sunday a couple of weeks ago and basically said that was par for the course, so **** it, national insurance rates can be set, but we’ll have less people employed to pay them...
Jeremy Hunt would have allowed another vote then? Would have though that would have hit the news......... big time.....
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L i b
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#46
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(Original post by Alt Tankie)
Scotland (or rather it’s elites) were bribed/ cajoled into joining the U.K. by England. It might not have been the outright colonisation of say India but it was a harbinger of the economic colonialism which we see alive and kicking today where elites are bought and paid for to go against the wishes of the masses e.g Greece, Italy, Venezuela, Iran etc
The bribed/cajoled stuff is more the product of myth than reality. Scotland, of course, was a pre-democratic society at the time. No-one gave any thought to the wishes of the masses - which, in any case, were almost impossible to gauge and ill-informed in any case.

Multiple attempts had been made at parliamentary union before 1707, but with Scotland rather than England being the party pushing them: it was a political inevitability, and in 1707 there was wide support for the union in Scotland's Parliament. If you want to look at the reasons for the union, look at the political and economic arguments - as well, inevitably, as the religious ones: it secured both the Protestant Reformation, but also defended the Presbyterian system of church governance when a key argument against union had been fears about the imposition of episcopacy.

Very few countries have been formed by anything as civilised as parliamentary votes. England and Scotland themselves were formed by a heady mix of bloody conquest, royal intermarriage and a dose of ethnic cleansing thrown in for good measure. It is peculiarly offensive to suggest that it is the former that, apparently uniquely, is somehow invalid.

You might argue that elites benefited: indeed, they did, from access to imperial markets and trade, a lot of it - in Scotland's case - that actual colonialism that you speak about. Wherever money was being made in the empire, Scots were almost universally over-represented - they were the colonisers and a great deal of money was made, not just by the feudal elites, but also those who rose up the economic latter through their global adventures.
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L i b
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#47
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(Original post by BeetRoots)
As time goes by, as circumstances change, so views change, the values of one generation are not automatically shared by the next. So, there certainly can be another vote on independence and should there be one the consequences of Brexit' might figure large. Scotland has for some time been a nation among many in the EU. Now Scotland is on the verge of once again being under the domination of England. If I was Scottish I know what I'd want.
The "domination of England". Jesus. Scotland is an equal part of the United Kingdom, Scotland is represented fully in the UK Parliament and this country makes decisions together.

Of course views and values can change. And yes, 20 years down the line we might reasonably have another vote on Scottish independence - or it might have died off as a political movement completely or pretty much fall of the agenda as Quebec sovereigntism has.

What happens in Scotland, however, is a nationalist party that is continually losing support and in a state of inertia, constantly raising the issue to circumvent attention on its domestic policies. They don't want a second referendum, at least not now; they certainly don't expect one to be signed-off by any UK Government even if they did push hard for it. There isn't a credible economic argument for breaking up the UK that doesn't start off with them losing billions of pounds every year in public expenditure, suffering a considerable economic shock far worse than any modern recession and having to adapt to the currency policies of a banana republic.

So, for now, they're whipping up their core vote and trying to avoid scrutiny of what they actually are: a devolved administration with control over several important things like education, where they've done an utterly awful job after 12 years in power.
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Quady
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#48
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(Original post by L i b)
The "domination of England". Jesus. Scotland is an equal part of the United Kingdom, Scotland is represented fully in the UK Parliament and this country makes decisions together.
LIB, you're bright. Bright enough to know that is demonstrably untrue.

If Scotland (or Wales/Northern Ireland) were equal then each would have equal numbers of seats in the UK Parliament.

As it is there are 650 constituencies, with 533 in England, 40 in Wales, 59 in Scotland, and 18 in Northern Ireland.

England has over 80% of the seats. That sounds like domination of the other parts to me and I'm unsure how one could argue >80% v <10% is equal.
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BeetRoots
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#49
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(Original post by L i b)
The "domination of England". Jesus. Scotland is an equal part of the United Kingdom, Scotland is represented fully in the UK Parliament and this country makes decisions together.

Of course views and values can change. And yes, 20 years down the line we might reasonably have another vote on Scottish independence - or it might have died off as a political movement completely or pretty much fall of the agenda as Quebec sovereigntism has.

What happens in Scotland, however, is a nationalist party that is continually losing support and in a state of inertia, constantly raising the issue to circumvent attention on its domestic policies. They don't want a second referendum, at least not now; they certainly don't expect one to be signed-off by any UK Government even if they did push hard for it. There isn't a credible economic argument for breaking up the UK that doesn't start off with them losing billions of pounds every year in public expenditure, suffering a considerable economic shock far worse than any modern recession and having to adapt to the currency policies of a banana republic.

So, for now, they're whipping up their core vote and trying to avoid scrutiny of what they actually are: a devolved administration with control over several important things like education, where they've done an utterly awful job after 12 years in power.
No, neither politically nor economically are Scotland equal partners in the Union. I appreciate Scottish Tories try to pretend otherwise but when Brexit' happens Scotland in the Union will be back to its auld status in its follow-the-master relationship with Westminster and English interests.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Quady)
Jeremy Hunt would have allowed another vote then? Would have though that would have hit the news......... big time.....
Quality reply like... No. When Jeremy hunt was asked about whether job losses were likely as a result of brexit he said yes. My point is that brexiteers seem to think this is perfectly acceptable... until it’s their jobs lost. Then they’ll be crying.
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Quady
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#51
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)



Quality reply like... No. When Jeremy hunt was asked about whether job losses were likely as a result of brexit he said yes. My point is that brexiteers seem to think this is perfectly acceptable... until it’s their jobs lost. Then they’ll be crying.
Yours too, it seems you replied but to talk about another referendum.

Why do you keep talking about Brexit??
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imlikeahermit
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#52
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(Original post by Quady)
Yours too, it seems you replied but to talk about another referendum.

Why do you keep talking about Brexit??
Because it’s such a massive mistake, beyond comprehension.
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L i b
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#53
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(Original post by BeetRoots)
No, neither politically nor economically are Scotland equal partners in the Union. I appreciate Scottish Tories try to pretend otherwise but when Brexit' happens Scotland in the Union will be back to its auld status in its follow-the-master relationship with Westminster and English interests.
Scotland is not a "partner" of the UK, it is part of the UK. Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are equally parts of the UK. Ultimately if anyone is an equal partner in the United Kingdom, it is the people of the United Kingdom - not some subdivisions of it.

Scotland is about as economically average within the United Kingdom as you can get, outperforming a great many English regions. How on earth does that square with your narrative? Or indeed that Scotland has equal representation in the UK Parliament?
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L i b
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#54
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(Original post by Quady)
LIB, you're bright. Bright enough to know that is demonstrably untrue.

If Scotland (or Wales/Northern Ireland) were equal then each would have equal numbers of seats in the UK Parliament.

As it is there are 650 constituencies, with 533 in England, 40 in Wales, 59 in Scotland, and 18 in Northern Ireland.

England has over 80% of the seats. That sounds like domination of the other parts to me and I'm unsure how one could argue >80% v <10% is equal.
In the same sense that Glasgow is equally a part of Scotland as Fife. Their equality is not on the basis of them being equally represented - that would be absurd - but in being as much part of the whole as any other part. Scotland is equally a part of the United Kingdom, just as the city of Edinburgh is equally a part of the United Kingdom. I am saying no more than that.

To call numerical superiority "domination" is equally peculiar. If you are to argue that the English have "domination" over Scots on that basis, you should equally argue that white people in this country have "domination" over black people, or that women have "domination" over men. Of course, that's a pretty silly argument, because "Scotland" cannot vote - it is an arbitrarily defined line on a map - is is the people of this country that make decisions, as we are all individually valued as comprising part of a democratic state. Government by any other principle simply alienates power from the individual human being, which is the only entity capable of holding an opinion or coming to a reasoned judgement.
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BeetRoots
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(Original post by L i b)
Scotland is not a "partner" of the UK, it is part of the UK. Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are equally parts of the UK. Ultimately if anyone is an equal partner in the United Kingdom, it is the people of the United Kingdom - not some subdivisions of it.

Scotland is about as economically average within the United Kingdom as you can get, outperforming a great many English regions. How on earth does that square with your narrative? Or indeed that Scotland has equal representation in the UK Parliament?
No, they are not equal in the Union - only Scottish Tories carry that delusion. Your username is 'Lib' but I'm guessing you vote Tory. With Brexit, especially a hard Brexit, Scotland will once again become a dominated and patronised nation.
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L i b
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(Original post by BeetRoots)
No, they are not equal in the Union - only Scottish Tories carry that delusion. Your username is 'Lib' but I'm guessing you vote Tory. With Brexit, especially a hard Brexit, Scotland will once again become a dominated and patronised nation.
I'm not sure what political parties have to do with this, nor have you really said what Brexit's got to do with this either. A lot of undeveloped assertions.

So why is Scotland not treated equally in the United Kingdom? Why does Brexit change the constitutional relationship between the UK Government and the devolved administrations?
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BeetRoots
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(Original post by L i b)
I'm not sure what political parties have to do with this, nor have you really said what Brexit's got to do with this either. A lot of undeveloped assertions.

So why is Scotland not treated equally in the United Kingdom? Why does Brexit change the constitutional relationship between the UK Government and the devolved administrations?
I'll take your silence as a concession that you are a Scottish Tory defending the Tory interpretation of the Union. Once Brexit' has happened any amount of legislation and policy driven by EU membership which has shielded the ordinary Scottish folk (I don't count those posh English-accent 'Scots') from English interests, values and manipulations will be eroded. I could be wrong, I'm not conceited, unlike most Brexiteers, but I think a hard-Brexit in particular will only strengthen the momentum for a Scotland free from the political domination of the English in Westminster.
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Quady
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(Original post by L i b)
In the same sense that Glasgow is equally a part of Scotland as Fife. Their equality is not on the basis of them being equally represented - that would be absurd - but in being as much part of the whole as any other part. Scotland is equally a part of the United Kingdom, just as the city of Edinburgh is equally a part of the United Kingdom. I am saying no more than that.

To call numerical superiority "domination" is equally peculiar. If you are to argue that the English have "domination" over Scots on that basis, you should equally argue that white people in this country have "domination" over black people, or that women have "domination" over men. Of course, that's a pretty silly argument, because "Scotland" cannot vote - it is an arbitrarily defined line on a map - is is the people of this country that make decisions, as we are all individually valued as comprising part of a democratic state. Government by any other principle simply alienates power from the individual human being, which is the only entity capable of holding an opinion or coming to a reasoned judgement.
Or Ipswich is equal with Scotland then fine.

This is not a union of equals though.

White people do have domination over black people. That's why Stephen Lawence died. Have we ever had any black Cabinet Ministers?

The male:female ratio in the UK is what 49:51? That's pretty equal.

Scotland decided to stay in the EU, England decided to leave. So we are leaving. Due to a vote by a Tory Government which had less than 2% of the seats in Scotland. Where is the equal decision making there.

If Scotland (and the other parts of the UK) were roughly the same size you could say it's a union of equals, but self evidently it ain't. Whether that is good, bad or it doesn't matter is a different question though.
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Quady
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Because it’s such a massive mistake, beyond comprehension.
Ok, surely there are enough threads about that, no?
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by Quady)
LIB, you're bright. Bright enough to know that is demonstrably untrue.

If Scotland (or Wales/Northern Ireland) were equal then each would have equal numbers of seats in the UK Parliament.

As it is there are 650 constituencies, with 533 in England, 40 in Wales, 59 in Scotland, and 18 in Northern Ireland.

England has over 80% of the seats. That sounds like domination of the other parts to me and I'm unsure how one could argue >80% v <10% is equal.
Beat me to it
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