Will Scotland vote for independence? Watch

123543
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#81
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#81
If you're so pro-EU, then isn't it hypocritical to suggest:

" I don't believe we have to rely on England and allow the other UK countries and UK parliament to drag us down. If we become independent we can make our own decisions on what we want not what the rest of the UK want."

Literally, change England/rest of the UK to Europe.

Why don't we have independence for your local council area? Surely you don't want to have to rely on Holyrood and other Scottish councils? If your council becomes independent they can make important decisions on what they want, besides from bin collections.
(Original post by gw07mcgheerachel)
I believed we were better off independent and I still believe it. I think more people will vote for it now because of Brexit. I don't believe we have to rely on England and allow the other UK countries and UK parliament to drag us down. If we become independent we can make our own decisions on what we want not what the rest of the UK want. We have free health care and education and so own I dont want this to change and in order to stay the same we should become our own country.
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gw07mcgheerachel
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#82
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(Original post by 123543)
If you're so pro-EU, then isn't it hypocritical to suggest:

" I don't believe we have to rely on England and allow the other UK countries and UK parliament to drag us down. If we become independent we can make our own decisions on what we want not what the rest of the UK want."

Literally, change England/rest of the UK to Europe.

Why don't we have independence for your local council area? Surely you don't want to have to rely on Holyrood and other Scottish councils? If your council becomes independent they can make important decisions on what they want, besides from bin collections.
Did I say I was pro EU? Council's can't make as big decisions as government
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123543
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#83
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#83
You said you thought more people will vote for independence "because of Brexit."

By the same token, Holyrood can't make as big decisions as Westminster. It's just a different level of federalism.
(Original post by gw07mcgheerachel)
Did I say I was pro EU? Council's can't make as big decisions as government
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gw07mcgheerachel
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#84
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#84
Due to brexit people who I know have the opinions that we would be better off independent but only because of brexit. If we become independent Holyrood will have more power to make decisions
(Original post by 123543)
You said you thought more people will vote for independence "because of Brexit."

By the same token, Holyrood can't make as big decisions as Westminster. It's just a different level of federalism.
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Burton Bridge
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#85
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The SNP making the case for Scottish independence on the back of the remain vote is quite possibly the most dishonest arugement I think I have ever heard.

Firstly if they has voted to leave the United Kingdom in their referendum, there membership of the EU would certainly not have remained the same.
Then we have the pretence of a break of democracy in the EU referendum is ridiculous also. Nicola does not appear to like democracy one bit, she does not respect the Scottish independence referendum she lost and now does not respect the EU referendum either! She's just slightly more democratic than Xi Jimping!
The idea the SNP are a ationalist party I would question also, I would call them Scottish globalist party!

The Scottish people blame Labour for leaving them, I don't understand why? Labour is the only party that's done anything positive for Scotland. They still have far more socialist polices up there, that is why the status quo is not as scary to Scott's and personally I believe that is why remain won a majority in Scotland.
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Quady
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#86
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#86
(Original post by gw07mcgheerachel)
I dont want this to change and in order to stay the same we should become our own country.
In order to stay the same we must change?
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123543
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#87
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#87
I am aware. What powers would you like to see devolved which the Scotland Act 2016 doesn't encompass? Defence? Scottish army?

"We would be better off independent of the UK (4x more valuable to Scotland in terms of trade than the EU) because being independent of the EU is bad." This is utterly ridiculous and totally disingenuous from the SNP and other economic illiterates that espouse such rubbish.

Do you know how many of the entry criteria we meet to enter the EU? You don't just walk in.

(Original post by gw07mcgheerachel)
Due to brexit people who I know have the opinions that we would be better off independent but only because of brexit. If we become independent Holyrood will have more power to make decisions
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gw07mcgheerachel
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#88
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I think the British government is ridiculous yes the Scottish government isn't any better at times but what use is staying in the UK to us? In my opinion we're better off leaving regardless of brexit.

(Original post by 123543)
I am aware. What powers would you like to see devolved which the Scotland Act 2016 doesn't encompass? Defence? Scottish army?

"We would be better off independent of the UK (4x more valuable to Scotland in terms of trade than the EU) because being independent of the EU is bad." This is utterly ridiculous and totally disingenuous from the SNP and other economic illiterates that espouse such rubbish.

Do you know how many of the entry criteria we meet to enter the EU? You don't just walk in.

(Original post by gw07mcgheerachel)
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gw07mcgheerachel
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#89
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#89
Well if staying in the UK is going to result in change then yes we must become independent to avoid the changes which benefit our country
(Original post by Quady)
In order to stay the same we must change?
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123543
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#90
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#90
What use is staying in the UK to us:

- Free movement and no hard border between Scotland and England (External Schengen border if we opt to rejoin the EU)
- Pension security (UK legislation secures pensions)
- Currency security (GBP backed by 32,000,000 taxpayers)
- Job security to the tune of 528,707 jobs (2013 study by Fraser of Allander institute)
- Banking protections (UK legislation protects all savings up to £85,000 if a bank goes under; something increasingly on the rise)
- Trade (Internal trade within the UK worth 4x more than trade to the EU)
- Social protection (No passport/Visa checks required for travel)
- United defence policy
- Existing infrastructure of the state
- Strong international relations and world standing

Would you like to substantiate your claim as to why "we're better off leaving regardless of Brexit?"
(Original post by gw07mcgheerachel)
I think the British government is ridiculous yes the Scottish government isn't any better at times but what use is staying in the UK to us? In my opinion we're better off leaving regardless of brexit.
Last edited by 123543; 3 weeks ago
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Quady
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#91
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(Original post by gw07mcgheerachel)
Well if staying in the UK is going to result in change then yes we must become independent to avoid the changes which benefit our country
How much extra tax are you personally prepared to pay for the setup of the new state?
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Quady
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#92
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#92
(Original post by 123543)
What use is staying in the UK to us:

- Free movement and no hard border between Scotland and England (External Schengen border if we opt to rejoin the EU)
- Pension security (UK legislation secures pensions)
- Currency security (GBP backed by 32,000,000 taxpayers)
- Job security to the tune of 528,707 jobs (2013 study by Fraser of Allander institute)
- Banking protections (UK legislation protects all savings up to £85,000 if a bank goes under; something increasingly on the rise)
- Trade (Internal trade within the UK worth 4x more than trade to the EU)
- Social protection (No passport/Visa checks required for travel)
- United defence policy
- Strong international relations and world standing

Would you like to substantiate your claim as to why "we're better off leaving regardless of Brexit?"
You realise 'pension security' and 'currency security' undermines your argument? The BoE just prints money and who in their right mind thinks pensions are secure?

Once we are out of the EEA we won't be forced to implement the Deposit Guarantee Schemes Directive anymore either.

I thought the whole 'UK refusing to create a hard border' thing was what has been holding up the brexit? Would love to see the rUK have another land border to police.

'Strong international relations and world standing' how is Brexit going again?
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Quady
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#93
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#93
(Original post by 123543)
I am aware. What powers would you like to see devolved which the Scotland Act 2016 doesn't encompass? Defence? Scottish army?
VAT
National Insurance
Corporation Tax
State Pension
Duty
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123543
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#94
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#94
You cannot guarantee pension security in an independent Scotland as we have in the UK, I'm sorry. Are you suggesting there will be a Scottish PPF?

"The BoE just prints money..." sound economic analysis right there. And a new Scottish current would be far more stable? Or perhaps we could join the Euro?

The UK refusing to create a hard border is with regards to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It would be nearly impossible to satisfy EU policy on external Schengen borders, (as you rightly point out as a significant sticking point right now on the island of Ireland) so can you imagine how bad it would be between Scotland and England if Scotland rejoined the EU.

You can objectively recognise we have a very strong international standing (G20, G7, UN SC) without thinking Brexit is going well. Don't conflate Brexit going badly with the UK being irrelevant in the international sphere.
(Original post by Quady)
You realise 'pension security' and 'currency security' undermines your argument? The BoE just prints money and who in their right mind thinks pensions are secure?

Once we are out of the EEA we won't be forced to implement the Deposit Guarantee Schemes Directive anymore either.

I thought the whole 'UK refusing to create a hard border' thing was what has been holding up the brexit? Would love to see the rUK have another land border to police.

'Strong international relations and world standing' how is Brexit going again?
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L i b
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#95
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(Original post by Quady)
Or Ipswich is equal with Scotland then fine.

This is not a union of equals though.

White people do have domination over black people. That's why Stephen Lawence died. Have we ever had any black Cabinet Ministers?

The male:female ratio in the UK is what 49:51? That's pretty equal.

Scotland decided to stay in the EU, England decided to leave. So we are leaving. Due to a vote by a Tory Government which had less than 2% of the seats in Scotland. Where is the equal decision making there.

If Scotland (and the other parts of the UK) were roughly the same size you could say it's a union of equals, but self evidently it ain't. Whether that is good, bad or it doesn't matter is a different question though.
"Scotland" did not decide anything, nor did England. 33,577,342 people in the United Kingdom (and yes, I did have to look that up) decided, individually, to cast votes in a certain way.

Again, I didn't claim it was a "union of equals" in the sense you are implying, or a "partnership" or anything like that. I've been saying Scotland and England are equally parts of the United Kingdom - it is individual British citizens that have equality before the law.

The point I was making is that any person can make themselves a self-defined minority within a democracy. I may have a minority ethnic identity, or a minority national identity, or a minority sexual orientation. All of these characteristics are irrelevant in a democratic state where one person has one vote.

I'm not arguing that these are good or bad attributes, simply that the United Kingdom is - as you might expect - a democratic state.
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123543
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#96
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VAT is partly devolved.

Other than that, what substantial changes would you make? The SNP haven't made great swathes of changes with their new powers.
(Original post by Quady)
VAT
National Insurance
Corporation Tax
State Pension
Duty
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L i b
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#97
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(Original post by BeetRoots)
I'll take your silence as a concession that you are a Scottish Tory defending the Tory interpretation of the Union. Once Brexit' has happened any amount of legislation and policy driven by EU membership which has shielded the ordinary Scottish folk (I don't count those posh English-accent 'Scots') from English interests, values and manipulations will be eroded. I could be wrong, I'm not conceited, unlike most Brexiteers, but I think a hard-Brexit in particular will only strengthen the momentum for a Scotland free from the political domination of the English in Westminster.
OK, putting the odder parts of your points aside, the idea that legislation in most areas is simply incorrect. That was the point of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. It provided for the continuity of EU law across many areas from day one of Britain leaving the EU. In any case, a great deal of it is already implemented at domestic level anyway. You might argue that the law could change - that is, of course, the position with EU law as equally as it is with UK law.

Your argument appears to be that legislation will be changed to reflect the interests of England. I'm not entirely sure what these interests are - given that Scotland has a pretty similar economy and so on, but we'll ignore that for now. Because the glaring point in this argument is that you seem to think a union of 500 million people scattered across a continent can better reflect Scottish interests (whatever they may be) than a union of 70 million people that comprises the island that most of Scotland is on, some additional islands and a chunk of our main neighbour. That, to me, is an absurdity.

(Original post by BeetRoots)
Exactly, so it's a flawed relationship among sovereign nations. Scotland should set itself free of Farage and all that he represents.
And Scotland is, of course, not a sovereign nation. It is part of a sovereign state, the United Kingdom.

If you really think Nigel Farage, a passing politician, is an excuse to break up a 300 year old union, I suppose you should similarly hold the view that the personal flaws of Alex Salmond equally make the case to abolish devolution. Both are ridiculous propositions.
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L i b
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#98
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(Original post by Quady)
VAT
National Insurance
Corporation Tax
State Pension
Duty
OK. Is that not more or less full fiscal autonomy? Because clearly by devolving pension powers as well as the responsibility for financing them entirely to Scotland, the state pension would almost inevitably decrease. Either that or taxes would have to go up considerably, or large portions of public spending redirected from elsewhere.

What you're effectively arguing for there is for an outcome where Scotland's economy and public services are crashed.
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Quady
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#99
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(Original post by 123543)
You cannot guarantee pension security in an independent Scotland as we have in the UK, I'm sorry. Are you suggesting there will be a Scottish PPF?

"The BoE just prints money..." sound economic analysis right there. And a new Scottish current would be far more stable? Or perhaps we could join the Euro?

The UK refusing to create a hard border is with regards to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It would be nearly impossible to satisfy EU policy on external Schengen borders, (as you rightly point out as a significant sticking point right now on the island of Ireland) so can you imagine how bad it would be between Scotland and England if Scotland rejoined the EU.

You can objectively recognise we have a very strong international standing (G20, G7, UN SC) without thinking Brexit is going well. Don't conflate Brexit going badly with the UK being irrelevant in the international sphere.
I expect there would be a PPF, are you suggesting the PPF is secure? I'd be interested to see what happens if BT needed to call upon it.

I doubt it would be more stable. I just doubt sterling would be stable if there was a vote to leave either. Wasn't a great day for sterling today either. I hope we don't join the euro, but that's just the same as our current currency union.

I can recognise the UK is a member of some international groups. I just don't see us having strong international relations. Who with? US...? Russia....? China...? India.....? Germany.....? No.....
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123543
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#100
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I'm suggesting the PPF is more secure than the non-existent proposal from the SNP. Economic issues don't tend to be their priority. An obsessive desire for independence does.

I'm not saying our currency is stable at all, however, it's expected that it will be turbulent due to the lack of certainty, partly due to the chaos manufactured by the SNP (why didn't they vote for Ken Clarke's custom union proposal in the indicative votes process if they were so diametrically opposed to a no-deal Brexit?) to suit their political agenda. Their end goal is Scottish independence at all costs.

You seriously underestimate the strength of British diplomacy.
(Original post by Quady)
I expect there would be a PPF, are you suggesting the PPF is secure? I'd be interested to see what happens if BT needed to call upon it.

I doubt it would be more stable. I just doubt sterling would be stable if there was a vote to leave either. Wasn't a great day for sterling today either. I hope we don't join the euro, but that's just the same as our current currency union.

I can recognise the UK is a member of some international groups. I just don't see us having strong international relations. Who with? US...? Russia....? China...? India.....? Germany.....? No.....
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