Prime Minister backs high Speed rail in the north. Watch

nulli tertius
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Drewski)
The same worry hasn't stopped them pissing away money for Crossrail hand over fist for the last decade. It's delayed by what, another year and it's cost has doubled. Yet no ****er complains about that because it's in London and TFL can do no wrong.
The Government had been misled grievously over Crossrail.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/...me-and-budget/

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/ar...-project-right

However the Public Accounts Committee reported that the previous chairman of Crossrail:-

"explained that he first informed the Mayor of London and the Secretary of State in July 2018 that there was no feasible way to deliver the programme on time and that Crossrail Ltd was considering options for a delay. He told us that the response from both sponsors was that it had to be completed in 2018. The Department told us that it asked Crossrail Ltd to do what it could to open something on time. The previous Chair explained that the Mayor’s response was to ask if more money could incentivise contractors to deliver on time."

The Secretary of State was Grayling and the Mayor was Khan.
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nulli tertius
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#22
(Original post by Drewski)
That's more or less my point.

These projects get the go ahead - despite them pissing the money up the wall - because they're in London.
Mr Churchill didn't give it the go-ahead because there was a war on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_London_Plan

Mr Attlee didn't give it the go-ahead because we were short of money

https://archive.org/details/railways00609132

In 1976 there were complaints to Mr Callaghan's government that the proposals had been delayed for two years since the Barran Committee had reported to Mr Wilson's government.

We have been waiting two years for some of the modest schemes that the Barran Report advocated. It advocated Cross-Rail and suggested that trains could go from the Holborn Viaduct station through existing tunnels. It was a modest scheme. The track was there and was used by 20 goods trains a day until three years ago, when British Rail took the tracks up. But the route is there at very little cost. My right hon. Friend can announce vast sums for the electrification of St. Pancras at the drop of a hat. I would suggest that somewhere in his Department there is a good assessment with regard to how public moneys should be used for London railways. I asked his earlier predecessor, the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), Questions relating to the Great Northern electrification but I did not receive satisfactory answers.
By 1980 there was a leaflet with a pretty picture showing the Advanced Passenger Train running on CrossRail.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/doc...ilLink1980.pdf

and in 1989 a study

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/doc...lStudy1989.pdf

Things were hotting up when John Major got into office and in 1991 legislation was proposed

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/doc...ilBill1991.pdf

Fresh legislation was introduced in 2005 and passed in 2008

https://services.parliament.uk/Bills...il/stages.html

So for London we are looking at just under 80 years from start to finish

The Woodhead electrified route between Sheffield and Manchester was proposed around 1910, planned in 1936, opened in 1953, closed in 1970 and scrapped in the 1980s
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LiberOfLondon
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#23
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
:rofl:

Yes, I've been wondering about the budget. Are the likes of Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve and yes, Hammond, likely to sign off an a wild surge in spending designed to keep Bojo in permanent office and deliver a Hard Brexit? And if not, if the spending promises are all just so much empty Trumpian frothing, won't that become completely clear on Mr Javid Esq's (I'm following Rees-Mogg rules on the use of 'Esq' now) first red case at the bar?

This is of course another reason why there is a pressing need for an election no later than 10 October.
:rofl: Was the JRM Manual of Style a wind up or not? Agreed that Bercow (Remain) as the sole Tory majority is a bit of an untenable position for Boris. Is that with or without Sinn Fein?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
:rofl: Was the JRM Manual of Style a wind up or not? Agreed that Bercow (Remain) as the sole Tory majority is a bit of an untenable position for Boris. Is that with or without Sinn Fein?
No it wasn't a wind up

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/28/jacob...taff-10473815/

However to be fair to him, all ministers produce a style guide for their private offices. This is for correspondence that goes out in the minister's own name. If someone is writing your letters, it is very annoying to see phrases you would never use yourself.

Some of his rules are unworkable though. Which is better English?

"I met the Dean & Chapter of Wells Cathedral last night. It has spent £100,000 on a new music room at the Cathedral School. Barnaby Smith Esq., the headmaster, told me that he saw one of the boys, James Brown Esq., score a try from his own 72 foot line."

Or

"I met with the Dean & Chapter of Wells Cathedral last night. They have invested £100,000 in a new music room at the Cathedral School. Mr Smith, the headmaster, told me that he saw one of the boys, Jimmy Brown, score a try from his own 22 metre line."

On your other points; the photo was Hammond not Bercow. Bercow, as Speaker, is one of the most reliable MPs. He doesn't vote most of the time. When he does vote, Erskine May is very clear on which way he will vote in almost all circumstances.

The numbers are:

Government

Conservatives 311
Charlie Elphicke 1
DUP 10

Total 322

Less
Eleanor Lang (Deputy Speaker)

Total 321

Less 2 tellers on each division

Total 319

Opposition

Labour 247
SNP 35
Lib Dems 12
Change 5
PC 4
Green 1
Independents (including Jared O'Mara) 15

Total 319

Less 2 Deputy Speakers

Total 317

Less 2 tellers on each division

Total 315

So:-

Govt 319
Opp 315

Non-voting:-
Speaker+three deputies 4
Sinn Féin 7
Tellers 4
Vacant 1
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Fullofsurprises
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#25
(Original post by nulli tertius)
No it wasn't a wind up

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/28/jacob...taff-10473815/

However to be fair to him, all ministers produce a style guide for their private offices. This is for correspondence that goes out in the minister's own name. If someone is writing your letters, it is very annoying to see phrases you would never use yourself.

Some of his rules are unworkable though. Which is better English?

"I met the Dean & Chapter of Wells Cathedral last night. It has spent £100,000 on a new music room at the Cathedral School. Barnaby Smith Esq., the headmaster, told me that he saw one of the boys, James Brown Esq., score a try from his own 72 foot line."

Or

"I met with the Dean & Chapter of Wells Cathedral last night. They have invested £100,000 in a new music room at the Cathedral School. Mr Smith, the headmaster, told me that he saw one of the boys, Jimmy Brown, score a try from his own 22 metre line."

On your other points; the photo was Hammond not Bercow. Bercow, as Speaker, is one of the most reliable MPs. He doesn't vote most of the time. When he does vote, Erskine May is very clear on which way he will vote in almost all circumstances.

The numbers are:

Government

Conservatives 311
Charlie Elphicke 1
DUP 10

Total 322

Less
Eleanor Lang (Deputy Speaker)

Total 321

Less 2 tellers on each division

Total 319

Opposition

Labour 247
SNP 35
Lib Dems 12
Change 5
PC 4
Green 1
Independents (including Jared O'Mara) 15

Total 319

Less 2 Deputy Speakers

Total 317

Less 2 tellers on each division

Total 315

So:-

Govt 319
Opp 315

Non-voting:-
Speaker+three deputies 4
Sinn Féin 7
Tellers 4
Vacant 1
So Nulli, the media are generally reporting that the government majority next week, assuming that as predicted, they lose Brecon & Radnor, will be 1. Don't your figures, which I think are correct, mean that it will be 2, eg, Govt 318 and Opp 316? Have I missed something?
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MrDystopia
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Unsure what to make of this given the seemingly widespread unpopularity of HS2.

I do think that public transport in the North needs to improve, and thus require attention when one considers the efforts given to consistently keep London's transport up to date.
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CoolCavy
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How can we tell other countries to stop cutting down their rainforests and jungles when we just decimate our countryside
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Retired_Messiah
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****ing hell lads they've nicked off with labour's "magic money tree" from the last election and now they're gonna use it for HS2 two: electric boogaloo

what a time to be alive
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by CoolCavy)
How can we tell other countries to stop cutting down their rainforests and jungles when we just decimate our countryside
It's dismal. Britain is basically trying to be like Japan and cover the entire country in concrete. We have so little space - we should be planting trees and rewilding, not building train systems that are only beneficial to much larger and emptier countries like France.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
So Nulli, the media are generally reporting that the government majority next week, assuming that as predicted, they lose Brecon & Radnor, will be 1. Don't your figures, which I think are correct, mean that it will be 2, eg, Govt 318 and Opp 316? Have I missed something?
Everyone is all over the place with the figures.

This explains it nicely.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ity-parliament

There is only one problem. Adding back the Speaker and the vacant seat, there are only 649 MPs. They have knocked Elphicke off the Tories but not added him to the independents.


You can do no better with the Commons own website.

https://beta.parliament.uk/houses/1A...arties/current

There are 651 MPs on that list, not counting the vacant seat.

Elphicke is definitely counted twice
https://beta.parliament.uk/houses/1A.../current/a-z/e
https://beta.parliament.uk/houses/1A.../current/a-z/e

The other error is that there aren't 248 Labour MPs, there are 247. I don't know who the fictitious Labour MP is.

This list is accurate but ignores the fact the deputy speakers don't vote.

https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-...f-the-parties/
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by MrDystopia)
Unsure what to make of this given the seemingly widespread unpopularity of HS2.
Is HS2 widely unpopular? There is a very noisy public lobby against it whilst those supporting it bend the ears of government, so far successfully.

I suspect that if Boris dropped the rest of HS2, you would find that all those gently whispering in Grayling's ear suddenly have a claque of very vocal and noisy supporters demanding HS2 all over the northern half of Britain and the public opinion polls of the "not really thought about it" majority will move strongly behind it.

The anti-HS2 lobby are mostly those affected by Phase 1. Once it is up and running and they are stuck with it and may actually be using it (if they have a station) their hostility is likely to melt away.
Last edited by nulli tertius; 3 weeks ago
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
No it wasn't a wind up

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/28/jacob...taff-10473815/

However to be fair to him, all ministers produce a style guide for their private offices. This is for correspondence that goes out in the minister's own name. If someone is writing your letters, it is very annoying to see phrases you would never use yourself.

Some of his rules are unworkable though. Which is better English?

"I met the Dean & Chapter of Wells Cathedral last night. It has spent £100,000 on a new music room at the Cathedral School. Barnaby Smith Esq., the headmaster, told me that he saw one of the boys, James Brown Esq., score a try from his own 72 foot line."

Or

"I met with the Dean & Chapter of Wells Cathedral last night. They have invested £100,000 in a new music room at the Cathedral School. Mr Smith, the headmaster, told me that he saw one of the boys, Jimmy Brown, score a try from his own 22 metre line."

On your other points; the photo was Hammond not Bercow. Bercow, as Speaker, is one of the most reliable MPs. He doesn't vote most of the time. When he does vote, Erskine May is very clear on which way he will vote in almost all circumstances.

The numbers are:

Government

Conservatives 311
Charlie Elphicke 1
DUP 10

Total 322

Less
Eleanor Lang (Deputy Speaker)

Total 321

Less 2 tellers on each division

Total 319

Opposition

Labour 247
SNP 35
Lib Dems 12
Change 5
PC 4
Green 1
Independents (including Jared O'Mara) 15

Total 319

Less 2 Deputy Speakers

Total 317

Less 2 tellers on each division

Total 315

So:-

Govt 319
Opp 315

Non-voting:-
Speaker+three deputies 4
Sinn Féin 7
Tellers 4
Vacant 1
Re the JRM style guide, I would word the sentence as:
Last night, I met the Dean and Chapter of Wells Cathedral. The Cathedral School has spent £100,000 on a new music room. Mr Smith, headmaster of the Cathedral School, has told me that he saw one of his pupils, Jimmy Smith, score a try from his 25 yard line.

I would say that a GE will occur sooner rather than later.
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nulli tertius
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#33
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Re the JRM style guide, I would word the sentence as:
Last night, I met the Dean and Chapter of Wells Cathedral. The Cathedral School has spent £100,000 on a new music room. Mr Smith, headmaster of the Cathedral School, has told me that he saw one of his pupils, Jimmy Smith, score a try from his 25 yard line.

I would say that a GE will occur sooner rather than later.
The "invested" point is JRM insisting on making a politically loaded comment, I think specifically about education.

You have just avoided the issue regarding organisations being singular or plural by changing the sentence. You are doing that to avoid JRM's rule that produces bad English. The correct position is that organisations take the singular or the plural depending on whether their names emphasize the unity of the organisation or the identity of its participators.

You agree with me that he is just wrong about the use of Esq.

It wasn't a 25 yard line though. The line wasn't converted from Imperial to metric; it was moved 30 years ago. Converting dimensions that were "born metric" into Imperial measurements (72 foot line/24 yard line) is doing a Harriet Harperson. Even worse is the Old Englisshe Tea Shoppe anachronism of saying that Usain Bolt won the Olympic 100 yards race (which is what you have done with the reference to the 25 yard line).
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
The "invested" point is JRM insisting on making a politically loaded comment, I think specifically about education.

You have just avoided the issue regarding organisations being singular or plural by changing the sentence. You are doing that to avoid JRM's rule that produces bad English. The correct position is that organisations take the singular or the plural depending on whether their names emphasize the unity of the organisation or the identity of its participators.

You agree with me that he is just wrong about the use of Esq.

It wasn't a 25 yard line though. The line wasn't converted from Imperial to metric; it was moved 30 years ago. Converting dimensions that were "born metric" into Imperial measurements (72 foot line/24 yard line) is doing a Harriet Harperson. Even worse is the Old Englisshe Tea Shoppe anachronism of saying that Usain Bolt won the Olympic 100 yards race (which is what you have done with the reference to the 25 yard line).
I agree with you that Ye Olde Englishe Tea Shoppe is not a good look, but the 22m line was historically the 25yd line.
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Fullofsurprises
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#35
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
I agree with you that Ye Olde Englishe Tea Shoppe is not a good look, but the 22m line was historically the 25yd line.
There have been some quite amusing put-downs on the Rees-Mogg today from experts in the English language, etc.

The biggest thing I noticed was no use of the word 'equal'. It would appear that even the very concept of equality is to be airbrushed from the House of Commons. How very Stalinist.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
I agree with you that Ye Olde Englishe Tea Shoppe is not a good look, but the 22m line was historically the 25yd line.
Yes I appreciate that both rugby codes had a 25 yard line but when rugby union metricated they moved the line nearer the goal and when rugby league metricated they moved it closer still to the goal. The rugby league 20 metre line is 2.86 metres nearer the goal than the old 25 yard line.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
There have been some quite amusing put-downs on the Rees-Mogg today from experts in the English language, etc.

The biggest thing I noticed was no use of the word 'equal'. It would appear that even the very concept of equality is to be airbrushed from the House of Commons. How very Stalinist.
Obviously JRM is Lord President of the Council

I hope the Queen has some fun at his expense.
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C.Goodyear
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#38
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Anything that goes to the north is a waste of money.
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Fullofsurprises
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#39
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Everyone is all over the place with the figures.

This explains it nicely.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ity-parliament

There is only one problem. Adding back the Speaker and the vacant seat, there are only 649 MPs. They have knocked Elphicke off the Tories but not added him to the independents.


You can do no better with the Commons own website.

https://beta.parliament.uk/houses/1A...arties/current

There are 651 MPs on that list, not counting the vacant seat.

Elphicke is definitely counted twice
https://beta.parliament.uk/houses/1A.../current/a-z/e
https://beta.parliament.uk/houses/1A.../current/a-z/e

The other error is that there aren't 248 Labour MPs, there are 247. I don't know who the fictitious Labour MP is.

This list is accurate but ignores the fact the deputy speakers don't vote.

https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-...f-the-parties/
Here's what the BBC are saying today on the B & R results page:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49200636

Name:  _108154894_stateofparties_lib_dem.jpg
Views: 8
Size:  69.3 KB

They put Labour on 245. (So they've correctly abolished Chris Williamson, Derby N.)

So this is correct, isn't it? The government's majority is now 1.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Here's what the BBC are saying today on the B & R results page:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49200636

Name:  _108154894_stateofparties_lib_dem.jpg
Views: 8
Size:  69.3 KB

They put Labour on 245. (So they've correctly abolished Chris Williamson, Derby N.)

So this is correct, isn't it? The government's majority is now 1.
The only thing for Boris to do is give Nigel Farage a ring, make a pact and call a GE.
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