FutureZoologist
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#41
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#41
(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
That's begging the question. The idea that humans have more inherent worth than animals is essentially what we're attempting to support or refute here - we should not just assume that it is the case. Why do you think humans are inherently worth more, or more worthy, than other animals?
Humans are worth more than animals because:
a) most animals can not identify themselves (except elephants, the great apes, dolphins and orcas I think) which means they are at a lesser level of consciousness/may not even be conscious - yes as an organism they would feel pain etc, but this does not prove there is something actually in there which knows it exists.
b) Animals live to survive and reproduce to continue their species. That is their purpose. They do not live to live; they do not live for experiences, for emotions, for love or for hate; they do not build languages or culture or art. They do not see beauty in things; they do not wonder about their own existence, or the existence of the universe. Yes, you could pull out ‘but some animals have strong family bonds’ - but why is this? This is simply the most effective way for them to ensure the survival of themselves and the next generation. Wolf packs hunt better when there are close family bonds; herbivores will have more chance of their offspring surviving if the offspring is being looked after until it can survive on its own.

Animals are not humans, or an ‘intelligent life form’, something which vegans often fail to understand.
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Obolinda
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#42
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#42
(Original post by FutureZoologist)
Animals are not humans, or an ‘intelligent life form’, something which vegans often fail to understand.
Yes, most animals are not humans, I'm pretty sure most vegans understand that!😂
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anosmianAcrimony
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#43
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#43
(Original post by Leviathan1611)
the because that's what the Bible teaches. a human is worth more than an animal.
That doesn't matter. We don't know that what's written in the Bible is true and correct. You may believe that it is, but we as a society need better sources of moral knowledge than that.
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Leviathan1611
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#44
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(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
That doesn't matter. We don't know that what's written in the Bible is true and correct. You may believe that it is, but we as a society need better sources of moral knowledge than that.
well I'm a Christian who believes the Bible, that's what the Bible says so I believe it.
you may think differently, and that's fine, I'm not trying to change your mind.🙂
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anosmianAcrimony
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#45
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(Original post by FutureZoologist)
Humans are worth more than animals because:
a) most animals can not identify themselves (except elephants, the great apes, dolphins and orcas I think) which means they are at a lesser level of consciousness/may not even be conscious - yes as an organism they would feel pain etc, but this does not prove there is something actually in there which knows it exists.
b) Animals live to survive and reproduce to continue their species. That is their purpose. They do not live to live; they do not live for experiences, for emotions, for love or for hate; they do not build languages or culture or art. They do not see beauty in things; they do not wonder about their own existence, or the existence of the universe. Yes, you could pull out ‘but some animals have strong family bonds’ - but why is this? This is simply the most effective way for them to ensure the survival of themselves and the next generation. Wolf packs hunt better when there are close family bonds; herbivores will have more chance of their offspring surviving if the offspring is being looked after until it can survive on its own.

Animals are not humans, or an ‘intelligent life form’, something which vegans often fail to understand.
Humans are animals, and as far as biology can tell, we only exist to propagate more humans too. Any other layers of meaning we have applied to human life are our own invention (which, in my opinion, makes them no less legitimate to be fair). Who can truly say what our purpose is, or of any other form of life?

You may claim to be a conscious and sentient life form. But what if that's just a cunning ruse enacted by a human life form that isn't conscious of itself, but has been evolutionarily honed to pretend it is to fit in with human society? Even you can't prove to me that you are conscious of your own existence. You could just be a naturally occurring soulless meat robot for all I know. So I'm going to eat you for dinner.
Last edited by anosmianAcrimony; 2 months ago
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pinesandapples2001
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Leviathan1611)
because that's what the Bible teaches. a human is more important than an animal.

I understand why people are vegan. my friend is one.
I still advice you to read Sapiens. It gives a history of mankind and how religion came to be and how our society came to be and is just really informative on how our world works and offers additional information to what the Bible can give.
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username2861570
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#47
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I believe animals should not be used for consumption, killed for materials, exploited for entertainment (circuses, zoos) or used for testing. I believe we should all strive to show compassion to all living beings big and small alike.

Dunno if that answers your question but that's my two cents.
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Tori20023
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#48
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#48
(Original post by FutureZoologist)
I believe that eating and using animals is part of the natural circle of life - (thus I am not vegan) - however, we should minimise all suffering to ensure quick death and no suffering during life. This is why I strongly oppose factory farms, I believe all farm animals should be properly free range and grass-fed, left to their own devices as much as possible. I believe dairy cows should not have their calves taken away (1/3 of their milk thus being used to feed the calves).
Zoos should only be used for conservation housing only endangered species and should have massive spaces recreating as much as possible the animal’s native habitat with enrichment etc.
you dont even understand how happy i am to heat you say that. I fully agree with you 👏👏
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anosmianAcrimony
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#49
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#49
(Original post by JoshDarnIt)
I believe animals should not be used for consumption, killed for materials, exploited for entertainment (circuses, zoos) or used for testing. I believe we should all strive to show compassion to all living beings big and small alike.

Dunno if that answers your question but that's my two cents.
I'm vegan but I grudgingly accept the use of animal testing for medical purposes. If we can save or drastically improve thousands of human lives by ending a few dozen mouse lives, is it a compassionate act not to? The rate of exchange for nonhuman suffering for improvement of human life is just so good. (I'm completely against the use of animal testing for cosmetic products, though.)

Also, in most countries' practice, animal testing is much better regulated and humane-ified than farming for animal products.
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username2861570
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#50
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#50
(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
I'm vegan but I grudgingly accept the use of animal testing for medical purposes. If we can save or drastically improve thousands of human lives by ending a few dozen mouse lives, is it a compassionate act not to? The rate of exchange for nonhuman suffering for improvement of human life is just so good. (I'm completely against the use of animal testing for cosmetic products, though.)

Also, in most countries' practice, animal testing is much better regulated and humane-ified than farming for animal products.
You make a valid point. It's something I'd have to do more research in before I make up my mind about it tho.
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Tori20023
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#51
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#51
(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
I'm vegan but I grudgingly accept the use of animal testing for medical purposes. If we can save or drastically improve thousands of human lives by ending a few dozen mouse lives, is it a compassionate act not to? The rate of exchange for nonhuman suffering for improvement of human life is just so good. (I'm completely against the use of animal testing for cosmetic products, though.)

Also, in most countries' practice, animal testing is much better regulated and humane-ified than farming for animal products.
You do realise that believing in animal testing goes against veganism as is protrayed as cruelty free. Its funny how you say your vegan which suggests that you dont what to hurt animals but then you say that mice can be tortured for human well being, thats a bit selfish. It has also been proven that animal testing isnt reliable as it is a totally different species that is likely to react to medication differently than humans. Furthermore, if you wanted the most closely related animals to humans you would have to use chimpanzees not mice for testing. All of this is torture and done against the animals will for human satisfactions.
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Leviathan1611
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#52
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#52
(Original post by loperioor)
Doesn't that retarded book also say that being gay is evil? So I take it you believe gays are evil then and going to hell?
I believe everything the Bible says, so I hope that answers future questions.
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anosmianAcrimony
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#53
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(Original post by Tori20023)
You do realise that believing in animal testing goes against veganism as is protrayed as cruelty free. Its funny how you say your vegan which suggests that you dont what to hurt animals but then you say that mice can be tortured for human well being, thats a bit selfish. It has also been proven that animal testing isnt reliable as it is a totally different species that is likely to react to medication differently than humans. Furthermore, if you wanted the most closely related animals to humans you would have to use chimpanzees not mice for testing. All of this is torture and done against the animals will for human satisfactions.
I know you don't know what you're talking about, and you know you don't know what you're talking about, so I'm content.
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Napp
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#54
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#54
(Original post by Tori20023)
You do realise that believing in animal testing goes against veganism as is protrayed as cruelty free. Its funny how you say your vegan which suggests that you dont what to hurt animals but then you say that mice can be tortured for human well being, thats a bit selfish. It has also been proven that animal testing isnt reliable as it is a totally different species that is likely to react to medication differently than humans. Furthermore, if you wanted the most closely related animals to humans you would have to use chimpanzees not mice for testing. All of this is torture and done against the animals will for human satisfactions.
So would you rather we test medications on babies instead of monkeys?
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Tori20023
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#55
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#55
(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
I know you don't know what you're talking about, and you know you don't know what you're talking about, so I'm content.
Actually i do know what im talking about because ive read alot on this topic therefore i know alot about this.
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Tori20023
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#56
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#56
(Original post by Napp)
So would you rather we test medications on babies instead of monkeys?
Why are you talking about babies? I believe that criminals that have comitted more serious crime should be. How can you just torture an innocent animal that has been held captive without its consent and tortured for the rest of their lives, thats disgusting.
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Napp
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(Original post by Tori20023)
Why are you talking about babies? I believe that criminals that have comitted more serious crime should be. How can you just torture an innocent animal that has been held captive without its consent and tortured for the rest of their lives, thats disgusting.
Yeah and your desire to test on people is soooo much more civilized :lol:
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anosmianAcrimony
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(Original post by Tori20023)
Actually i do know what im talking about because ive read alot on this topic therefore i know alot about this.
Good for you, buddy. :yy:
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Jingo7
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Almost every day a thread like this pops up. It must be a serious question that sensitive souls are asking themselves these days.

With animal rights, the responsibility is on the 'rights' side of the argument to make a watertight argument as to why we should view animals, who seem to be little more than complex computers, who have never spoken and therefore possess no language and therefore logically, no concioussness, why we should then bestow upon these machines any rights at all.

And before you start talking about feelings, about pain, how do you explain that an animal feels anything at all? Given that, in order to make meaning out of pain, it must be registered symbolically. It must be thought.
Last edited by Jingo7; 2 months ago
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Tori20023
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#60
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#60
(Original post by Jingo7)
Almost every day a thread like this pops up. It must be a serious question that sensitive souls are asking themselves these days.

With animal rights, the responsibility is on the 'rights' side of the argument to make a watertight argument as to why we should view animals, who seem to be little more than complex computers, who have never spoken and therefore possess no language and therefore logically, no concioussness, why we should then bestow upon these machines any rights at all.

And before you start talking about feelings, about pain, how do you explain that an animal feels anything at all? Given that, in order to make meaning out of pain, it must be registered symbolically. It must be thought.
Everything you say makes no sense at all. How can you compare animals to computers. Just because they dont speak a language that you can understand doesnt mean yhey cant communicate in other ways. Of course animals feel pain they react you can see when theyre scared, happy etc. Therefore, they have a conscience. Its funny cause you do realise that humans are animals too so why should you discriminate other animals just because their not people.
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