HS2 train Watch

ArtmisKco
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Are there more benefits or more disadvantages? Give the benefits and disadvantages and your own opinions about whether it is a good idea!
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999tigger
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(Original post by ArtmisKco)
Are there more benefits or more disadvantages? Give the benefits and disadvantages and your own opinions about whether it is a good idea!
Is this your homework or just asking for an opinion?

Opinion cost v benefits then I think its a waste of time.
being 30 mins closer to London is not going to make that much difference.
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Napp
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A spectacular waste of money. It beggars belief theyve managed to make it cost, what was it? £52,000,000,000?
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ArtmisKco
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Not homework just opinion. Thanks you guys!
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Saracen's Fez
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There are much better rail projects we can invest that money in than a third railway line from Birmingham to London.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Saracen's Fez)



There are much better rail projects we can invest that money in than a third railway line from Birmingham to London.
Is there really that much demand to travel from Aber to Carmarthen? And you can walk from Bangor to Pwhelli.

HS2 was a great idea at £35 billion but now seems to be pushing £50+ billion with some estimating it coming in at £100+ billion.i can't help thinking that investing in smarter working practices would be better. Do we need to travel so much?
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paul514
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(Original post by ArtmisKco)
Are there more benefits or more disadvantages? Give the benefits and disadvantages and your own opinions about whether it is a good idea!
HS2 apparently boils down to we need more capacity on the network which requires a new line.

So pretty much everyone would agree ok build a new line.

Where the disagreement comes is if it should be the type of line that is already there, as people seem to think this would be much cheaper.

I assume it would be cheaper but I have no idea how much cheaper.

Further disagreement then comes from other parts of the UK going err what about us we are more urgent.
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paul514
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Is there really that much demand to travel from Aber to Carmarthen? And you can walk from Bangor to Pwhelli.

HS2 was a great idea at £35 billion but now seems to be pushing £50+ billion with some estimating it coming in at £100+ billion.i can't help thinking that investing in smarter working practices would be better. Do we need to travel so much?
It’s going to be at least 50 and don’t be surprised if it reaches nearly 100 like some experts are saying.

We need new rail Infrastructure all over the country and the consumer of those services should pay for it.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by paul514)
It’s going to be at least 50 and don’t be surprised if it reaches nearly 100 like some experts are saying.

We need new rail Infrastructure all over the country and the consumer of those services should pay for it.
Could the same not be said about all infrastructure? What about roads or pavements? Or perhaps governments can deliver a greater good for all at a lower price?

As we are finding from the energy market, private companies are very good at robbing consumers blind whilst not providing very good services in return.
Last edited by ByEeek; 1 week ago
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paul514
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Could the same not be said about all infrastructure? What about roads or pavements? Or perhaps governments can deliver a greater good for all at a lower price?

As we are finding from the energy market, private companies are very good at robbing consumers blind whilst not providing very good services in return.
Most infrastructure yes, I would be happy for a mass investment in any infrastructure that has the ability to pay for its upgrade.
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fallen_acorns
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I'm not going to comment on specifics, because rail infrastructure is far from an area I know a lot about...

But from my own experience.. I just traveled around China on high-speed bullet trains for 2 weeks...

Suzhou to Hangzhou, 240km journey, cost me around £13. Took me an hour and a half.. big beautiful modern carriages, air conditioned, charging stations on each chair, huge amounts of leg room.. perfectly on time, arriving and departing from huge modern stations..

Yesterday we took a huge high-speed train route all the way from Shanghai to Haerbin, a 2,200km journey, all connected and on one high-speed train, all the way up through China, really nice reclining seats, we could order hot food, great service throughout etc.

My wife comes back to the UK, and sits on some of our trains and wonders why a modern developed country is so far behind her developing country.. it feels like going back in time for her. She pays 4-5x as much, and receives a much worse service in return.
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paul514
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
I'm not going to comment on specifics, because rail infrastructure is far from an area I know a lot about...

But from my own experience.. I just traveled around China on high-speed bullet trains for 2 weeks...

Suzhou to Hangzhou, 240km journey, cost me around £13. Took me an hour and a half.. big beautiful modern carriages, air conditioned, charging stations on each chair, huge amounts of leg room.. perfectly on time, arriving and departing from huge modern stations..

Yesterday we took a huge high-speed train route all the way from Shanghai to Haerbin, a 2,200km journey, all connected and on one high-speed train, all the way up through China, really nice reclining seats, we could order hot food, great service throughout etc.

My wife comes back to the UK, and sits on some of our trains and wonders why a modern developed country is so far behind her developing country.. it feels like going back in time for her. She pays 4-5x as much, and receives a much worse service in return.
Because they have just built their infrastructure and put a coach and horses through regulations.

We built ours 200 years ago
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joey11223
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(Original post by paul514)
Because they have just built their infrastructure and put a coach and horses through regulations.

We built ours 200 years ago
Pretty much, though it does seem at times even compared to other similiar nations in Western Europe..we seem to lag behind on certain projects (connectivity, rail etc).

Probably also the fact that part of HS2's spiraling cost is all the private land and property the route is going to effect/demolish had £X value placed upon it. As I watched in a dispatches/panorama on it, many businesses/individuals are appealing saying the compensation is vastly undervalued, doesn't take into account future potential earnings they've lost etc. There were offices in London where the guy had been offered £x million and he basically wanted 6-10 times that, and people are appealing with some success. I imagine in China if the government decides the railway is running through your house, you get what they decide to pay you and that's the end of the conversation..
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by paul514)
HS2 apparently boils down to we need more capacity on the network which requires a new line.

So pretty much everyone would agree ok build a new line.

Where the disagreement comes is if it should be the type of line that is already there, as people seem to think this would be much cheaper.

I assume it would be cheaper but I have no idea how much cheaper.

Further disagreement then comes from other parts of the UK going err what about us we are more urgent.
I recall reading that it would have cost about 1/5th as much as HS2 to double the capacity of the West Coast Main Line, notwithstanding that it would require drilling new tunnels and destroying some modern housing.

The whole HS2 project when finished will I understand shave approx. 10mins off London-Birmingham travel times once you factor in that it ends at a different station in B'ham. It is also plausibly likely that it won't end up at Euston in London, as court cases are skyrocketing the cost of land and property capture in and around the station and north of it. Not to mention that they are proposing at least 5 years of major road disruption in C. London whilst they build it. My guess is that Boris or someone in his grotty cabinet of liars, misfits and con artists will only have to be delayed an hour in traffic for the scheme to be rapidly redrawn. A station is proposed out in West London, which even if Crossrail goes somewhere near it (optimistic) would add another hour to transit times.

Even more crazed, it is regularly reported that they intend to wind down passenger through trains on the legacy routes, eliminating the competition that would otherwise be a permanent thorn in the side of the DfT and the TOC lucky enough to be appointed warden of this bloated taxpayer corporate cash cow.

Then we have the marvellous HS3 route, which will fail to reach the far North or Scotland, the only places in the UK that would materially benefit from a faster rail connection to London and will reduce service quality and journey times from the E. Midlands and Sheffield/Leeds to London, caused yet again by station relocations to inconvenient places which struggling regional and local government will not be able to connect up to efficiently due to lack of money.

It all makes the most marvellous sense and at £100bn and counting, is so much better value than, I don't know, just about nothing. :lol:
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I recall reading that it would have cost about 1/5th as much as HS2 to double the capacity of the West Coast Main Line, notwithstanding that it would require drilling new tunnels and destroying some modern housing.

This is just the sort of fake news you normally decry. "I recall reading". Find me any worthwhile source to this effect.

Here is Network Rail's rather picky response to the three sensible alternative proposals.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ternatives.pdf

What you can't do is keep the cost of any alternative at some point in the historic past, when its cost will also have ballooned.

Construction has been underway for 2 years. Abandonment means the costs thrown away have to be added to the project cost of an alternative.

Ultimately none of these proposals had traction because no-one wanted to build them. The only people backing them had no interest beyond stopping HS2.

The whole HS2 project when finished will I understand shave approx. 10mins off London-Birmingham travel times once you factor in that it ends at a different station in B'ham. It is also plausibly likely that it won't end up at Euston in London, as court cases are skyrocketing the cost of land and property capture in and around the station and north of it. Not to mention that they are proposing at least 5 years of major road disruption in C. London whilst they build it. My guess is that Boris or someone in his grotty cabinet of liars, misfits and con artists will only have to be delayed an hour in traffic for the scheme to be rapidly redrawn. A station is proposed out in West London, which even if Crossrail goes somewhere near it (optimistic) would add another hour to transit times.
Birmingham is 32 minutes closer to Euston with HS2. When the West Coast route was last upgraded a 40 minute time reduction to Manchester prompted a massive increase in usage. The Curzon Street station is just a device to pretend the very real time benefits don't exist. Birmingham already has three central city local commuter stations in Snow Hill, Moor Street and New Street. Only passengers wanting to change to another train at New Street will have any additional changing time. Most passengers won't be changing at all and Curzon Street will have a better carparking offer than New Street.

Crossrail already exists past the West London station because it is an enormous former engine shed complex on the GWR being redeveloped for housing. Euston is really only on the scheme because of Londoners' perceptions. The HS1 services to Kent run into St Pancras and the public wouldn't have accepted anything else but most of the passengers use Stratford.

Even more crazed, it is regularly reported that they intend to wind down passenger through trains on the legacy routes, eliminating the competition that would otherwise be a permanent thorn in the side of the DfT and the TOC lucky enough to be appointed warden of this bloated taxpayer corporate cash cow.
All service changes produce winners and losers. More stations will get more frequent but slower (because of the increased stops) London services on the legacy lines, but that will worsen the service for those who currently catch the existing infrequent expresses.

Which would you rather have; two London express trains a day and a Leyland bus/changing at the big city, the rest of the time or 16 semi-fasts, one every hour? The answer invariably depends on whether the expresses are convenient for you.

Then we have the marvellous HS3 route, which will fail to reach the far North or Scotland, the only places in the UK that would materially benefit from a faster rail connection to London and will reduce service quality and journey times from the E. Midlands and Sheffield/Leeds to London, caused yet again by station relocations to inconvenient places which struggling regional and local government will not be able to connect up to efficiently due to lack of money.

It all makes the most marvellous sense and at £100bn and counting, is so much better value than, I don't know, just about nothing. :lol:
HS3 is Liverppol to Leeds. It won't go anywhere near Scotland.
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paul514
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I recall reading that it would have cost about 1/5th as much as HS2 to double the capacity of the West Coast Main Line, notwithstanding that it would require drilling new tunnels and destroying some modern housing.

The whole HS2 project when finished will I understand shave approx. 10mins off London-Birmingham travel times once you factor in that it ends at a different station in B'ham. It is also plausibly likely that it won't end up at Euston in London, as court cases are skyrocketing the cost of land and property capture in and around the station and north of it. Not to mention that they are proposing at least 5 years of major road disruption in C. London whilst they build it. My guess is that Boris or someone in his grotty cabinet of liars, misfits and con artists will only have to be delayed an hour in traffic for the scheme to be rapidly redrawn. A station is proposed out in West London, which even if Crossrail goes somewhere near it (optimistic) would add another hour to transit times.

Even more crazed, it is regularly reported that they intend to wind down passenger through trains on the legacy routes, eliminating the competition that would otherwise be a permanent thorn in the side of the DfT and the TOC lucky enough to be appointed warden of this bloated taxpayer corporate cash cow.

Then we have the marvellous HS3 route, which will fail to reach the far North or Scotland, the only places in the UK that would materially benefit from a faster rail connection to London and will reduce service quality and journey times from the E. Midlands and Sheffield/Leeds to London, caused yet again by station relocations to inconvenient places which struggling regional and local government will not be able to connect up to efficiently due to lack of money.

It all makes the most marvellous sense and at £100bn and counting, is so much better value than, I don't know, just about nothing. :lol:
I’m going to need to see a link or two showing the 1/5th cost to believe that.
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SubZero~
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It's just sad that the costs just keep changing and not for the better. There's always an increase and it's a drain but the problem is that significant developments have been made, you can't really stop now.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by SubZero~)
It's just sad that the costs just keep changing and not for the better. There's always an increase and it's a drain but the problem is that significant developments have been made, you can't really stop now.
It's never prevented the government from stopping other schemes in their tracks (pun intended) when it suited them.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by paul514)
I’m going to need to see a link or two showing the 1/5th cost to believe that.
So for example on a 30 second Google I found the New Economics Foundation report that indicated that all of the following could have been done for the same price as HS2 (including the massive revamp of the WCML):

Full electrification of much of the northern rail network.
The reopening of the trans pennine Woodhead line between Manchester and Sheffield to provide a fourth east-west link in the north
A Bradford Crossrail, to link the two lines that terminate in Bradford and put the city at the epicentre of northern rail.
The full electrification of the midland and great western lines.
The creation of more four track sections on the three core, north-south mainlines and of bridges to take slower, regional lines over intercity lines to speed up long distance journeys

https://neweconomics.org/2019/03/hs2...than-the-north

Shall we dive into more and more sources, or shall we just accept the obvious that HS is staggeringly expensive and will basically just serve the richest people in the community, whilst degrading rail services for everyone else? Does anyone seriously think that HS tickets are going to be reasonably priced?
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Fullofsurprises
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Oh and back in 2011, there was horror when it was revealed that the costed alternative plans to substantially upgrade the WCML had risen to the astonishing sum of - £8.9bn.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13140243

The good old days. :cry2:
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