Fullofsurprises
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Trotsky's Iceaxe)
The government has announced a review into HS2.

Those of us who take fiscal responsibility seriously rather than just treating it as a buzzword before obediently voting Conservative are shaking our heads in bemusement.
If this goes anything like the Heathrow third runway review, it will be a compliant exercize in contractor-pandering and fantasyland voodoo ecomoronic forecasts. Note that the chap they've put in charge of it is a former head of HS2, which doesn't inspire huge confidence.

Time will tell. :teehee:
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#42
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
I'm not going to comment on specifics, because rail infrastructure is far from an area I know a lot about...

But from my own experience.. I just traveled around China on high-speed bullet trains for 2 weeks...

Suzhou to Hangzhou, 240km journey, cost me around £13. Took me an hour and a half.. big beautiful modern carriages, air conditioned, charging stations on each chair, huge amounts of leg room.. perfectly on time, arriving and departing from huge modern stations..

Yesterday we took a huge high-speed train route all the way from Shanghai to Haerbin, a 2,200km journey, all connected and on one high-speed train, all the way up through China, really nice reclining seats, we could order hot food, great service throughout etc.

My wife comes back to the UK, and sits on some of our trains and wonders why a modern developed country is so far behind her developing country.. it feels like going back in time for her. She pays 4-5x as much, and receives a much worse service in return.
very true, the UK in particular compared to other European nations struggles to open one line proposed in 2009, makes you wonder why we lag behind :rolleyes:

Obviously China's methods will not work in the West, but we can and must learn from her rapid success as well as those of our neighbours.
Last edited by BlueIndigoViolet; 4 weeks ago
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ArtmisKco
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#43
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#43
It’s very disorganised to say that they’ll build HS2 and now say that they need to review it due to expenses and environmental damage. But then again the government has been disorganised about brexit for quite a while too
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nulli tertius
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#44
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(Original post by ArtmisKco)
It’s very disorganised to say that they’ll build HS2 and now say that they need to review it due to expenses and environmental damage. But then again the government has been disorganised about brexit for quite a while too
To some degree this is Boris pandering to home counties voters ahead of an election, but I suspect there is a nugget in there that neither Boris nor Javid believe a word that is said by either side on the subject of HS2.
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
If this goes anything like the Heathrow third runway review, it will be a compliant exercize in contractor-pandering and fantasyland voodoo ecomoronic forecasts. Note that the chap they've put in charge of it is a former head of HS2, which doesn't inspire huge confidence.

Time will tell. :teehee:
His deputy is a well known opponent of HS2.

I think I could right the outcome now.
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barnetlad
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#45
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
very true, the UK in particular compared to other European nations struggles to open one line proposed in 2009, makes you wonder why we lag behind :rolleyes:

Obviously China's methods will not work in the West, but we can and must learn from her rapid success as well as those of our neighbours.
I've travelled on the TGV in France several times, which is the model we should aspire to.

I suspect that the outcome might be only parts of the line being built, perhaps that from Old Oak Common to Birmingham.
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Muttley79
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#46
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(Original post by ArtmisKco)
It’s very disorganised to say that they’ll build HS2 and now say that they need to review it due to expenses and environmental damage. But then again the government has been disorganised about brexit for quite a while too
Presumably you know about the protests about puling up hedges and clearing trees in the nesting season which is against the law? The permission for enabling works has not been given but HS2 are going ahead with this sort of destruction anyway.
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ArtmisKco
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#47
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(Original post by Muttley79)
Presumably you know about the protests about puling up hedges and clearing trees in the nesting season which is against the law? The permission for enabling works has not been given but HS2 are going ahead with this sort of destruction anyway.
Oh gosh I’m not saying I support HS2 I’m just saying that on the whole they’re very disorganised I mean they’ve also kicked a lot of people out from their homes who were unfortunately in the middle of the HS2 rail they were gonna build. But on the whole I started this thread to see whether there are more positives than negatives and there are more negatives that correspond to great beliefs that HS2 should not be built. I look at Japan sometimes and say wow they know what they’re doing I wish our government had a clue too
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Fullofsurprises
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#48
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
I think I could right the outcome now.
I assume you meant 'write' - you anticipate that it will be a yes to HS1 and a no to any further developments, or a yes to everything?
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Fullofsurprises
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#49
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(Original post by ArtmisKco)
Oh gosh I’m not saying I support HS2 I’m just saying that on the whole they’re very disorganised I mean they’ve also kicked a lot of people out from their homes who were unfortunately in the middle of the HS2 rail they were gonna build. But on the whole I started this thread to see whether there are more positives than negatives and there are more negatives that correspond to great beliefs that HS2 should not be built. I look at Japan sometimes and say wow they know what they’re doing I wish our government had a clue too
The Japanese don't know what they're doing. They've carpet-bombed Japan in truly unnecessary and all too frequently unused transport infrastructure projects, pouring billions of tons of concrete, destroying their precious natural environment and ballooning their deficit. Sometimes Keynsian make-work projects simply aren't what is needed.
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ArtmisKco
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#50
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The Japanese don't know what they're doing. They've carpet-bombed Japan in truly unnecessary and all too frequently unused transport infrastructure projects, pouring billions of tons of concrete, destroying their precious natural environment and ballooning their deficit. Sometimes Keynsian make-work projects simply aren't what is needed.
You are right about japan building too many bullet trains and rails but I would still like a quarter of what they have over here!
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ArtmisKco
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#51
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Thank you to everybody for posting their opinions on whether the HS2 should be built or not. All your posts have been very useful and I’ve read each one in full detail.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#52
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The Japanese don't know what they're doing. They've carpet-bombed Japan in truly unnecessary and all too frequently unused transport infrastructure projects, pouring billions of tons of concrete, destroying their precious natural environment and ballooning their deficit. Sometimes Keynsian make-work projects simply aren't what is needed.
True but you can't help but admire their vision in the 1950s for high speed rail at the start of the jet age after the war, and a reliable and efficient service, so we could definitely learn a thing or two from them.

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nulli tertius
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#53
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I assume you meant 'write' - you anticipate that it will be a yes to HS1 and a no to any further developments, or a yes to everything?
Sorry about that!

I don't think it will be yes to everything.

Grayling's line was that they have fixed a budget and it must be delivered for the budget which just means the Government would be lied to until the last possible moment AKA Crossrail

However, I don't see how politically they can abandon the North by just building HS1.

My feeling is they will abandon the branch to Leeds and offer compensating improvements on the legacy railways. They will still build to Manchester and perhaps towards Liverpool.

Leicester and Derby don't get HS2 at all. The Nottingham station is poorly located. Sheffield is going to be served by a lowspeed link. The East Midlands would much prefer the completion of Midland Mainline electrification.

The East Coast mainline serving Leeds doesn't have the same capacity constraints as the West Coast mainline . It is not full to capacity. It has bottlenecks that reduce the number of train paths. Get rid of the flat crossing at Newark where two railways cross, possibly double the line from Huntingdon to Peterborough and double the Welwyn Viaduct and the result would be a substantial increase in capacity.
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Rakas21
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#54
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Once phase 2 is complete the journey time from Leeds to Sheffield, Nottingham and London will have all halved as will London-Manchester. This has knock on impacts for connecting services to Scotland. That is the speed advantage (upto 250mph) and while a bunch of people elsewhere may dislike it, as somebody living in Leeds i think the project will be great, especially when combined with HS3 (which at Leeds will be part of the same station).

While i am aware that many (especially southern people) wish to rubbish such an infrastructure project they should remember that actually the second greatest area of economic activity outside London is the Merseyside-Greater Manchester-West Yorkshire and connecting Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds to other large cities like Birmingham and London is very beneficial (phase 1 is the less profitable part because of land and legal costs which are lower in the north).

I would also add the capacity point mentioned elsewhere. There are already 8 services from London-Birmingham plus local traffic every hour. On the East Coast Main Line there is less need for capacity but removing 2-4 services per hour is certainly advantageous for freight and local services.

HS2 will deliver 21 services per hour leaving London with 14 stopping in Birmingham and both Leeds and Manchester seeing 3 and hour each. The rest will connect with the conventional network and go onto other cities and Scotland (spreading the time benefits).

I will admit i would prefer a more comprehensive network but this will be the fastest in Europe as things stand (an image of what i'd eventually want).

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Last edited by Rakas21; 4 weeks ago
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999tigger
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Rakas21)
Once phase 2 is complete the journey time from Leeds to Sheffield, Nottingham and London will have all halved as will London-Manchester. This has knock on impacts for connecting services to Scotland. That is the speed advantage (upto 250mph) and while a bunch of people elsewhere may dislike it, as somebody living in Leeds i think the project will be great, especially when combined with HS3 (which at Leeds will be part of the same station).

While i am aware that many (especially southern people) wish to rubbish such an infrastructure project they should remember that actually the second greatest area of economic activity outside London is the Merseyside-Greater Manchester-West Yorkshire and connecting Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds to other large cities like Birmingham and London is very beneficial (phase 1 is the less profitable part because of land and legal costs which are lower in the north).

I would also add the capacity point mentioned elsewhere. There are already 8 services from London-Birmingham plus local traffic every hour. On the East Coast Main Line there is less need for capacity but removing 2-4 services per hour is certainly advantageous for freight and local services.
Leeds benefits. Sheffield benefits very little.
I think its a waste of money and it would be better for the north to connect the existing cities.
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Rakas21
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#56
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#56
(Original post by 999tigger)
Leeds benefits. Sheffield benefits very little.
I think its a waste of money and it would be better for the north to connect the existing cities.
If it were an either/or situation i would be sympathetic perhaps but we both know that if HS2 goes, they are not going to spend more than £10bn in Leeds or Manchester. We would be opting to throw back most of the cash offered to us.
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999tigger
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Rakas21)
If it were an either/or situation i would be sympathetic perhaps but we both know that if HS2 goes, they are not going to spend more than £10bn in Leeds or Manchester. We would be opting to throw back most of the cash offered to us.
Dont know will have to see in the review. Also what they think about the actual cost will be.
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Fullofsurprises
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#58
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#58
(Original post by Rakas21)
Once phase 2 is complete the journey time from Leeds to Sheffield, Nottingham and London will have all halved as will London-Manchester. This has knock on impacts for connecting services to Scotland. That is the speed advantage (upto 250mph) and while a bunch of people elsewhere may dislike it, as somebody living in Leeds i think the project will be great, especially when combined with HS3 (which at Leeds will be part of the same station).

While i am aware that many (especially southern people) wish to rubbish such an infrastructure project they should remember that actually the second greatest area of economic activity outside London is the Merseyside-Greater Manchester-West Yorkshire and connecting Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds to other large cities like Birmingham and London is very beneficial (phase 1 is the less profitable part because of land and legal costs which are lower in the north).

I would also add the capacity point mentioned elsewhere. There are already 8 services from London-Birmingham plus local traffic every hour. On the East Coast Main Line there is less need for capacity but removing 2-4 services per hour is certainly advantageous for freight and local services.

HS2 will deliver 21 services per hour leaving London with 14 stopping in Birmingham and both Leeds and Manchester seeing 3 and hour each. The rest will connect with the conventional network and go onto other cities and Scotland (spreading the time benefits).

I will admit i would prefer a more comprehensive network but this will be the fastest in Europe as things stand (an image of what i'd eventually want).

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It's true that there's a lack of capacity on some of these key lines, but not when you stand next to them. If you want to see what I mean, try standing on one of the bridges above the tracks that lead into Euston even during a rush period and you will see relatively few intercity trains passing in each period of 10 minutes. They don't use modern technology widely used in other countries that allows trains to move closer together. I believe this is due to a combination of union objections and lack of commitment to investment from the DfT.

When you dig into this subject, you soon realise that smothering big contractors in cash, especially big consultancies, tends to be the top priority of government,

I like it that you want improvements to places like Wales and the W. Country, both of which are hideously poorly connected to the system for a modern country. There are glaring gaps in provision, especially E-W provision, across the country. The DfT have put the kibosh on the long-demanded Oxford-Cambridge line for example. Sheffield-Manchester and Leeds-Manchester are like a cruel and sustained joke by an evil genius played on the people who have to suffer them. There are basically no connections between some of our largest cities, such as Nottingham-Manchester, Leeds-Bristol, Glasgow-Leeds - I could go on, but all of these services are third rate, slow, overcrowded, involve changes or are run by shyster companies intent purely on profiteering under permissive monopoly franchises granted by a corrupt, sluggish, sinister central government department.

HS is their answer and it's a rubbish one.
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Rakas21
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#59
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#59
(Original post by 999tigger)
Dont know will have to see in the review. Also what they think about the actual cost will be.
The review is being headed by a previous head of HS2 and Boris told the 1922 committee right after he won that HS2 would not be scrapped. Since reviews tend say what the government want them to, this report will recommend a lot of changes to stations, connections ect.. but it will fundamentally not be allowed to say the project will be unprofitable.

Note that if Boris really wanted to scrap it, the review would be comparing it to alternatives.

I remain about 75% confident that he will put the phase 2 bill forwards next year.
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999tigger
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#60
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#60
(Original post by Rakas21)
The review is being headed by a previous head of HS2 and Boris told the 1922 committee right after he won that HS2 would not be scrapped. Since reviews tend say what the government want them to, this report will recommend a lot of changes to stations, connections ect.. but it will fundamentally not be allowed to say the project will be unprofitable.

Note that if Boris really wanted to scrap it, the review would be comparing it to alternatives.

I remain about 75% confident that he will put the phase 2 bill forwards next year.
Will wait and see. Cant say im convinced of it as a project compared to the cost.
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