Edexcel Unit 4 Implications - Philosophy of Religion - Donovan Watch

katied1990
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#21
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waterish thank you sooo much!!! that is sooooo helpful
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xangelbabyx
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#22
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some1 pls help me ahhhhhh...
im goin mad lol
wot are critisisms for donavon that i can use 2 put in part b of the essay?
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Waterish
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#23
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Here is a link to my Naturalism and Intuitionism presentation that i did for school a while ago. It explains the main points, if there's anything that doesn't make sense, ask me

Below is what i said in the Ayer thread, cos i'm too lazy to type it all out again (it seems ironic that i'm willing to spend almost 2 hours typing out the above post, but not this :P) .....
"If you didn't do ethics, then you shouldn't worry too much. I'm approaching this from my perspective, which obviously includes ethics, but it means that there's probably lots of stuff that you can mention that i know nothing about. So you could just substitute "intuitionism" and "naturalism" for relevant things you've studied "

My summary of emotivism and its strengths & weaknesses is here.


(Original post by xangelbabyx)
some1 pls help me ahhhhhh...
im goin mad lol
wot are critisisms for donavon that i can use 2 put in part b of the essay?
It's good, because as long as you know what Donovan says, you can actually use his own words to criticise things. So if you're given a passage about H.P. Owen talking about I-You relationships, then just use Donovan's critiques of this later (eg can we have an I-You relationship and not an I-It, etc. Do the same sort of thing as you do with Ayer. If you reference something, say why it is/is not strong - say who criticised it and whether the strengths outweigh the weaknesses - and say how this applies to Donovan's argument, then to society as a whole.

Hope that's ok

Also, here is a mark scheme that my teachers gave me. Well, it's also got example questions for Paper 4, in addition to the mark scheme. Go to page 175 and scroll downwards.
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sophie-elizabeth
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This things has practically been my saviour for this exam :]
after reading other posts kinda decided to leave out Westphal and focus on Donovan and Ayer
Iv done Ayer however struggling a bit on Donovan i just dont get what his main argument is?
if anyones got a summary of his argument just like a paragraph that would be so useful, im all set for the part B on Donovan just sorting out section A now :]
thanx!
x [x] x
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Waterish
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#25
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Ok this might sound strange considering what i've been typing, but could someone clarify part b) in regards to Donovan for me please? As in, what are his strengths and weaknesses and their implications for society.

Thanks in advance
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sophie-elizabeth
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Going to start with why Rel exp can be a problem
Im writing about William James in order to support some of Donovans ideas, numinosity, ineffability, noetic quality etc
Principle of credulity and pronciple of testimony
final strength for supporting rel exp. David Hay
weakness wise probably going to focus on freud and psychological explanations and the implicatiosn for the theist
Bertrand Russel also supports that in a few areas
weigh up the two blah blah blah and conclude :]
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Amzzzz
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Personally i dont think the criticism/evaluation of Donovan can be quite as straightforward as Ayer. I mean there are criticisms of Ayer that can be attributed to his essay for particular paragraphs and/or overall.

To me, Donovan seems to be arguing in an attempt to 'do justice to the varieties of R.E' ... highlighting and explaining the dangers of intuition and using religious experience as knowledge...but ultimately saying it cannot be dismissed. So unless someone else can enlighten me, I dont think he has put forward a particularly clear cut argument?

In that sense, there are not criticisms that can be applied to him overall...each paragraph must be assessed individually. Unless of course you want to argue that an 'all or nothing view of religious experience' can be taken...

Im sorry I know that doesnt help very much.
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Waterish
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#28
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Thank you

I'm going to go and write an essay on Donovan now, back later
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GaryCarter
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(Original post by Amzzzz)
In that sense, there are not criticisms that can be applied to him overall...each paragraph must be assessed individually. Unless of course you want to argue that an 'all or nothing view of religious experience' can be taken...

Im sorry I know that doesnt help very much.
I think what you guys are getting confused about is the difference between the writer's opinion and what they're saying. Even if Donovan is just explaining someone else's view you have to criticise the view that he's giving, not his own one. For example if you have the paragraph where Donovan is talking about why intuition isn't the same as knowledge you have to analyse that, not what Donovan's overall opinion is. (hope you understand what I mean)

Either that or I'm the one who's getting confused. :p:
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Amzzzz
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#30
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Sophie could you please tell me about david hay? I havent heard of him. Thank you
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Amzzzz
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(Original post by GaryCarter)
I think what you guys are getting confused about is the difference between the writer's opinion and what they're saying. Even if Donovan is just explaining someone else's view you have to criticise the view that he's giving, not his own one. For example if you have the paragraph where Donovan is talking about why intuition isn't the same as knowledge you have to analyse that, not what Donovan's overall opinion is. (hope you understand what I mean)

Either that or I'm the one who's getting confused. :p:
No I think you're exactly right, and thats what I'm saying - you have to assess the paragraph itself. But its helpful with Ayer coz you can demolish him with criticisms that apply throughout because everything he says comes down to the same point - verification blah blah blah.
But with Donovan there isnt a strong underlying opinion, it is lots of sections which can all be assessed in different ways.

Is that what you're saying too?
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DeepStar
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(Original post by Amzzzz)
No I think you're exactly right, and thats what I'm saying - you have to assess the paragraph itself. But its helpful with Ayer coz you can demolish him with criticisms that apply throughout because everything he says comes down to the same point - verification blah blah blah.
But with Donovan there isnt a strong underlying opinion, it is lots of sections which can all be assessed in different ways.
(Original post by Amzzzz)

Is that what you're saying too?
I assume so because thats we have been told to do and have been doing all this time, dont tell me it was all wrong :eek:
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Amzzzz
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To be honest as the time is getting nearer and this discussion just getting longer...I feel able to conclude that

NOTHING WE DO WILL POSSIBLY BE WRONG

Apart from talking about...i dunno...marshmallows or something...
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DeepStar
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(Original post by Amzzzz)
To be honest as the time is getting nearer and this discussion just getting longer...I feel able to conclude that

NOTHING WE DO WILL POSSIBLY BE WRONG

Apart from talking about...i dunno...marshmallows or something...
Haha thanks - thats some comfort, at least
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GaryCarter
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Ah, but it's not what's wrong that we're worried about, it's what's right. That's why we need to learn as much as possible before we go in.

Sooo much to learn.
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Amzzzz
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#36
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You'll be surprised how much you already know

People should make sure they're taking breaks though...I just watched Big Brother stuff for an hour or so and just laughed my head off - totally relieves stress. Of course thats just my thing, but you get my point.

But everyone will be fine, I mean theres so much info on here you will be streets ahead of other candidates keep smiling ppl!
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sophie-elizabeth
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is anyone actually looking at Westphal?
i havnt as of yet feels a bit ricky leaving it out tho :/
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GaryCarter
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I'm not bothering. I don't see how we could be asked about the hardest guy for the very first paper, let alone the fact that tons of people have been told by their teachers not to bother, let alone how Sarah Tyler hinted that it wouldn't come up.
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StandingOnAir
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#39
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Waterish, your big long breakdown post is great.

I genuinely think that, so long as you go into the exam clued up on religious language and religious experience, you'll be alright. If you can understand what the writer is saying in the extract, you'll naturally be able to come up with criticisms over and above anything you've studied in those two areas.

My teacher told us that this exam isn't so much about going through a list of set scholars in order to show you understand the argument and it's weaknesses, but about showing you have the ability to see the flaws in the argument for yourselves. This means linking it to anything we can think of that we've studied, yes, but the impression she got is that we have a lot more freedom than we had in units 1 and 3.
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rampant4russell
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#40
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****** me, waterish! (actually don't, i hardly know you). are you secretly god? thank you for that marathon post. so much.
i think we've done most of that stuff. or at least it's not completely alien...
argh we'll see
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