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username202682
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Made in the USA:

Like I said in my first post, lay off the crack! :yep:

You cannot deduce a person's political bent from statistics - that isn't what statistics do. I have no idea which orifice you pulled that idea from.

Now, let's look at the issue directly at the heart of the left/right dichotomy - the extent to which the state should interfere with the economy. The right, broadly, believe in free markets, deregulation, and as little state intervention as possible. The left, broadly, believe in economic planning.

Obama says - "We should be asking ourselves what mix of policies will lead to a dynamic free market and widespread economic security, entrepreneurial innovation and upward mobility."

Surprise surprise, Obama believes in the free market - just like everyone in contemporary, mainstream american politics does.
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ForeverIsMyName
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
I'm tired of seeing him kick the "change" buzzword around and leaving us to wait and see what "change" really means. The buzzword "change" sounds better than any of his big government marxist ideas that sap the enterprise of individuals and cultivate dependency, so I can't really blame him by using it all the time.
Dude, don't talk about stuff you know nothing about. Your debates are usually pretty interesting, but claiming that Obama is a Marxist is pretty much the equivalent of saying Mccain is a corporatist; it doesn't add anything to the debate, and it's silly.
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username202682
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claiming that Obama is a Marxist is pretty much the equivalent of saying Mccain is a corporatist
It's worse than that, even. Claiming that Obama is a marxist is pretty much the equivalent of saying that you take crack. First off, marxists believe in a revolution and eventually the abolition of the state in favour of decentralised communes. Made in the USA, however, claims that Obama is both in favour of big government and marxism. Not only is this wrong on both counts, but it is actually logically impossible!

I think my crack theory explains his/her stupid position quite well.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Stricof)
Made in the USA:

Like I said in my first post, lay off the crack! :yep:

You cannot deduce a person's political bent from statistics - that isn't what statistics do. I have no idea which orifice you pulled that idea from.

Now, let's look at the issue directly at the heart of the left/right dichotomy - the extent to which the state should interfere with the economy. The right, broadly, believe in free markets, deregulation, and as little state intervention as possible. The left, broadly, believe in economic planning.

Obama says - "We should be asking ourselves what mix of policies will lead to a dynamic free market and widespread economic security, entrepreneurial innovation and upward mobility."

Surprise surprise, Obama believes in the free market - just like everyone in contemporary, mainstream american politics does.

-Alex
Talk is cheap. You are using quotes to determine where Obama is on the political spectrum? Look at his actions, such as the way he votes and you'll see that it's ludicrous to argue that he isn't on the far left of the democrat party. He has the most left wing voting record in the senate
http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/us...=1&oref=slogin
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/c...mbers/o000167/
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/c...mbers/o000167/
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ForeverIsMyName
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
Talk is cheap. You are using quotes to determine where Obama is on the political spectrum? Look at his actions, such as the way he votes and you'll see that it's ludicrous to argue that he isn't on the far left of the democrat party. He has the most left wing voting record in the senate
http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/us...=1&oref=slogin
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/c...mbers/o000167/
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/c...mbers/o000167/
That probably puts him centre-ground in terms of international politics, and still so far from Marxism that it's baffling how anyone could even suggest it; left/right is an absolute scale, not a relative one; far leftists actually advocates economic restructuring based on economic power redistribution and advocating labour union control and decentralisation of economic and social decisions, which actually runs in the complete opposite direction of the typical anti-Obama criticism that he's an advocate of big central government, taking power away from the states and local government. You can pick one or the other - not both

If you want to argue that Obama is a European-style, fiscally irresponsible, social democrat wannabe who would be bad for American economically, fair enough, I'm not going to argue - but lets leave the word 'Marxist' well alone when referring to American politics - no Marxist will ever be elected to congress in America, let alone get anywhere in a political party - such is the relatively small space that the American political spectrum occupies in relation to international politics.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
Dude, don't talk about stuff you know nothing about. Your debates are usually pretty interesting, but claiming that Obama is a Marxist is pretty much the equivalent of saying Mccain is a corporatist; it doesn't add anything to the debate, and it's silly.
His campaign staff is filled with Marxists and radicals, and those are the kinds of people he has surrounded himself with all his life. He may not be a marxist, but he sure is fond of marxists.
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Teofilo
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
His campaign staff is filled with Marxists and radicals, and those are the kinds of people he has surrounded himself with all his life. He may not be a marxist, but he sure is fond of marxists.
I'd challenge you to find one person on his campaign staff that has ever been associated with "marxism" mate. You won't find one. That's just simply not true.

There's far more truth in saying McCain has surrounded himself with George Bush's men, and I know how much you hate that comparison! :p:
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ForeverIsMyName
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
His campaign staff is filled with Marxists and radicals, and those are the kinds of people he has surrounded himself with all his life. He may not be a marxist, but he sure is fond of marxists.
Who are the Marxists?
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
That probably puts him centre-ground in terms of international politics, and still so far from Marxism that it's baffling how anyone could even suggest it; left/right is an absolute scale, not a relative one; far leftists actually advocates economic restructuring based on economic power redistribution and advocating labour union control and decentralisation of economic and social decisions, which actually runs in the complete opposite direction of the typical anti-Obama criticism that he's an advocate of big central government, taking power away from the states and local government. You can pick one or the other - not both

If you want to argue that Obama is a European-style, fiscally irresponsible, social democrat wannabe who would be bad for American economically, fair enough, I'm not going to argue - but lets leave the word 'Marxist' well alone when referring to American politics - no Marxist will ever be elected to congress in America, let alone get anywhere in a political party - such is the relatively small space that the American political spectrum occupies in relation to international politics.
He is probably the perfect candidate for Europe, but too left wing for American politics. Where he falls on an international scale isn't relevant because he is running for president of this country.

I called some of his ideas marxist, but I never called Obama a marxist. Maybe I should have. Supporting a higher capital gains tax just for the purpose of punishing the rich, even if it diminishes actual tax revenue, is an idea I would expect to hear from Frank Marshall Davis, Obama's mentor and a member of the Communist Party USA.

Just to make you happy, I won't use the word marxist anymore. How about "Stalinist" instead?
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ForeverIsMyName
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
He is probably the perfect candidate for Europe, but too left wing for American politics. Where he falls on an international scale isn't relevant because he is running for president of this country.
My beef is that Marxist is a very, very specific term that has so much negative baggaged attched with it that's it's rather useless when labelling an actual Marxist, let alone a guy who hasn't ever shown signs of being one.

I called some of his ideas marxist, but I never called Obama a marxist. Maybe I should have. Supporting a higher capital gains tax just for the purpose of punishing the rich, even if it diminishes actual tax revenue, is an idea I would expect to hear from Frank Marshall Davis, Obama's mentor and a member of the Communist Party USA.
Has Obama ever called Davis his mentor?
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
Who are the Marxists?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCja99KpjWU

And for all of you who are going to attack the source, local Fox affiliates have nothing to do with the Fox News Channel.

http://onekit.enr-corp.com/1003946/
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
My beef is that Marxist is a very, very specific term that has so much negative baggaged attched with it that's it's rather useless when labelling an actual Marxist, let alone a guy who hasn't ever shown signs of being one.
It's really hard to know what his core beliefs are because he's been quite schizophrenic with his positions lately, moving left and right sometimes over the course of the same day. I have a hard time believing that the socialists, communists, and terrorists in his circle don't reflect any of his beliefs.

(Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
Has Obama ever called Davis his mentor?
He discusses the relationship in "Dreams from my Father". I'm not sure if the word mentor is used, but I do know that the two men were very close and had a father-son kind of relationship.
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Kondar
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My beef with Obama is this...
Yes, he is very intelligent and well spoken and after 8 years of the moron, it is sooo great to hear someone who can gracefully articulate his points of view. However, Obama knows that the path to the presidency is his or would be his one day. He chose to run now rather than wait and you have to ask why he thinks he is ready to be president after less than two years in the Senate (when he announced his campaign).

Obama was not a standout in the State Senate, yet he won a seat in the US Senate based largely on his personality and ability to connect with voters. Obama was not a standout in the US Senate, yet he won his party's nomination based on these very same attributes. Obama is so far all talk and little results and I think that he is running now because in 4 or 8 years he will have to account for his time in the senate and have results to go along with his rhetoric. If Obama had faith in his ability to process change then I think he would have waited to run for the presidency, the fact that he would rather run now with no track record is a red flag. This is why I am hesitant, despite his articulate and intelligent nature, to jump on the bandwagon and support him.

Compared to McCain who has put his political life on the line for what he believes to be right, even when it seems everyone is against him is something that I really respect. I see the exact opposite from Obama.. someone who has strategically shied away from having to make and then be accountable for the difficult decisions; the same decisions that McCain has been making his entire career.
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ForeverIsMyName
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
It's really hard to know what his core beliefs are because he's been quite schizophrenic with his positions lately, moving left and right sometimes over the course of the same day. I have a hard time believing that the socialists, communists, and terrorists in his circle don't reflect any of his beliefs.
I'm sure a scrutiny of Mccain's 'circle' will reveal that he associates with people who smile when abortion clinics are blown up, or people who believe the world is 6000 years old - point is, they're not running for president, and he is. Until he starts appointing his cabinet, who gives a damn what his company is?

He discusses the relationship in "Dreams from my Father". I'm not sure if the word mentor is used, but I do know that the two men were very close and had a father-son kind of relationship.
From wiki - "Claims of "decisive influence", 'mentor" and "father figure" are not supported by any facts or in Obama's memoir."
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
I'm sure a scrutiny of Mccain's 'circle' will reveal that he associates with people who smile when abortion clinics are blown up, or people who believe the world is 6000 years old - point is, they're not running for president, and he is. Until he starts appointing his cabinet, who gives a damn what his company is?
Obama's already hired people he shouldn't have, so we don't need to wait for him to appoint his cabinet so see if he is going to appoint radicals. He chooses these people the same way he chooses his friends. Cynthia K. Miller is a member of the Nation of Islam and she was the Treasurer of his U.S. Senate campaign. Jennifer Mason is Obama's Director of Constituent Services in his U.S. Senate office and is also in charge of selecting Obama's Senate interns. Mason is also a NOI member. Shakir Muhammad worked for Obama state senate campaign. Obama's condemnation of Louis Farrakhan's bigoted views about Jews is obviously phony. I'm sure many of these people will work in an Obama White House...
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Kondar
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(Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
I'm sure a scrutiny of Mccain's 'circle' will reveal that he associates with people who smile when abortion clinics are blown up, or people who believe the world is 6000 years old - point is, they're not running for president, and he is. Until he starts appointing his cabinet, who gives a damn what his company is?
On McCain's behalf, he nearly destroyed his political career in 2000 (when he lost to Bush in the primary) by denouncing the far right, especially the Christian far right. He referred to them as "agents of intolerance" and said that these kinds of hateful people should have no part in the Republican party. Bush used this against him to defeat him and McCain was labeled anti Cristian for many years.

Whats up man? You headed back to CH anytime soon?
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Captain Crash
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
Obama's already hired people he shouldn't have, so we don't need to wait for him to appoint his cabinet so see if he is going to appoint radicals. He chooses these people the same way he chooses his friends. Cynthia K. Miller is a member of the Nation of Islam and she was the Treasurer of his U.S. Senate campaign. Jennifer Mason is Obama's Director of Constituent Services in his U.S. Senate office and is also in charge of selecting Obama's Senate interns. Mason is also a NOI member. Shakir Muhammad worked for Obama state senate campaign. Obama's condemnation of Louis Farrakhan's bigoted views about Jews is obviously phony. I'm sure many of these people will work in an Obama White House...
What about McCain hiring Phil Gramm as his senior economic advisor? For someone who's personally responsible for instigating two of the biggest financial disasters of recent history (enron and the sub-prime) it's probably not a good idea to make him your senior economic advisor, let alone state that you know little about the economy but that's ok because you've got Gramm on your side.
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s.e.r.e.n.e
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Re Obama's trip overseas, if he can get huge European and middle-east crowds waving at him, and get that on television, that will do much good for his foreign policy credentials.
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Teofilo
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCja99KpjWU

And for all of you who are going to attack the source, local Fox affiliates have nothing to do with the Fox News Channel.

http://onekit.enr-corp.com/1003946/
I have a good deal of respect for you Madeintheusa and certainly consider your opinions (though I nearly always disagree with them ), but to merely cite a Cuban flag with an image of Che Guevara on the wall of a volunteer's office (not like it's actually an advisor in direct contact with Obama or anything) as an example that Obama surrounds himself with marxist advisors is absolute stupidity. Unless of course you believe Obama personally vets all posters/flags put up in every one of his campaign offices around the country...

If the campaign was indeed filled with Marxists (or those who had even displayed an inkling of Marxist sympathy at any point in their lives), do you not thing the press would have picked up on by now?
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Teofilo)
I have a good deal of respect for you Madeintheusa and certainly consider your opinions (though I nearly always disagree with them ), but to merely cite a Cuban flag with an image of Che Guevara on the wall of a volunteer's office (not like it's actually an advisor in direct contact with Obama or anything) as an example that Obama surrounds himself with marxist advisors is absolute stupidity. Unless of course you believe Obama personally vets all posters/flags put up in every one of his campaign offices around the country...

If the campaign was indeed filled with Marxists (or those who had even displayed an inkling of Marxist sympathy at any point in their lives), do you not thing the press would have picked up on by now?
I provided two links. Care to comment on the second link?
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