This discussion is closed.
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#581
Report 10 years ago
#581
(Original post by Don_Scott)
The Switzerland system is mostly private.
The Swiss system is compulsory insurance with optional private complementary insurance. Hardly mostly private.
0
Don_Scott
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#582
Report 10 years ago
#582
(Original post by Captain Crash)
The Swiss system is compulsory insurance with optional private complementary insurance. Hardly mostly private.
The insurance is paid for privately but for the very poor.
0
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#583
Report 10 years ago
#583
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Funny that you think we should emulate Sweden's system when our media is filled with stories and headlines that say "if we aren't careful, we could wind up as bad as Sweden"

Sweden has rationed health care, with waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery. Americans would never tolerate waiting many months for hip or knee replacement surgery like they do in Sweden.

I've read countless articles on how access to healthcare in Sweden is "third world" (due to long waiting lists) and we should be very careful not to make the same mistakes they did when we reform our system.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555...alth_Care.html
Excuse me if I take the opinion of a US conservative think tank with funding from Insurance Companies on alternative healthcare systems with a pinch of salt.

Meanwhile in most objective studies of healthcare systems, Sweden scores if not the top position, near the top.
0
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#584
Report 10 years ago
#584
(Original post by Don_Scott)
The insurance is paid for privately but for the very poor.
Sorry, I'll correct that - the insurance is mandated by the government and subsidised by the government.

I wouldn't actually say Switzland is my ideal healthcare system anyway - I was just suggesting it as a credible version of what Obama's trying to achieve.
0
Made in the USA
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#585
Report 10 years ago
#585
(Original post by Captain Crash)
Excuse me if I take the opinion of a US conservative think tank with funding from Insurance Companies on alternative healthcare systems with a pinch of salt.

Meanwhile in most objective studies of healthcare systems, Sweden scores if not the top position, near the top.
You can take it with a pinch of salt if you want, but I think those charts showing how long Swedes had to wait were pretty damning. Those "waiting lists" would never be tolerated in this country.
0
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#586
Report 10 years ago
#586
(Original post by Made in the USA)
You can take it with a pinch of salt if you want, but I think those charts showing how long Swedes had to wait were pretty damning. Those "waiting lists" would never be tolerated in this country.
Since you like waiting lists so much (hardly the best marker of a good medical system in my book but there you go...) you should try reading this report

Particularly look at pg20 - you can see here that the US waiting times is actually worse than all the other countries compared (including the UK) except for Canada. The elective surgery/specialist waiting times on pgs 24/25 are admittedly better, but the US is still beaten by Germany - a country with a similar system that Obama is proposing.

If you have the time, read the whole thing - there's not many stats in there are particularly flattering to the US.
0
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#587
Report 10 years ago
#587
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Funny that you think we should emulate Sweden's system when our media is filled with stories and headlines that say "if we aren't careful, we could wind up as bad as Sweden"

Sweden has rationed health care, with waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery. Americans would never tolerate waiting many months for hip or knee replacement surgery like they do in Sweden.

I've read countless articles on how access to healthcare in Sweden is "third world" (due to long waiting lists) and we should be very careful not to make the same mistakes they did when we reform our system.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555...alth_Care.html
Actually I'll just add to that - the article keeps on referring to rationing of care in Sweden with the implication being that the US doesn't.

Healthcare is a scarce resource that everyone needs - it is rationed in any country one way or another. In the US it just so happens that it's rationed by ability to pay rather than need or waiting times.

If waiting times are what you get to eliminating rationing in favour of those that can pay, that seems like a reasonable trade-off to me. No doubt you won't agree.
0
Made in the USA
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#588
Report 10 years ago
#588
(Original post by Captain Crash)
Actually I'll just add to that - the article keeps on referring to rationing of care in Sweden with the implication being that the US doesn't.

Healthcare is a scarce resource that everyone needs - it is rationed in any country one way or another. In the US it just so happens that it's rationed by ability to pay rather than need or waiting times.

If waiting times are what you get to eliminating rationing in favour of those that can pay, that seems like a reasonable trade-off to me. No doubt you won't agree.
For the people who are insured and get instant treatment, none of us are willing to compromise our care to get the legitimately uninsured 12 million (the 45 million number is a lie) covered by Obamacare. I won't accept waiting lists or rationing to extend coverage to those who have no insurance because I think we can have our cake and eat it too. There are ways to fix the existing system, get those 12 million covered, and not lower the quality of the other 288 million. I think there are private-sector based solutions that could "fix" the existing system and make coverage available to those 12 million people.
0
Made in the USA
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#589
Report 10 years ago
#589
(Original post by Captain Crash)
Since you like waiting lists so much (hardly the best marker of a good medical system in my book but there you go...) you should try reading this report

Particularly look at pg20 - you can see here that the US waiting times is actually worse than all the other countries compared (including the UK) except for Canada. The elective surgery/specialist waiting times on pgs 24/25 are admittedly better, but the US is still beaten by Germany - a country with a similar system that Obama is proposing.

If you have the time, read the whole thing - there's not many stats in there are particularly flattering to the US.
I read the whole thing. It's findings are based on subjective data, which is not really good for much. Most people only have experience with their own system and don't know how good or bad they have it.

Let me walk you though a recent experience I had at a US hospital and you tell me if such a discussion would ever occur in another country.

Doctor: So, you're knee hurts when I bent it like this?
Me: Yes
Doctor: I'll have to do an MRI to see what's going on inside...are you busy in an hour and 1/2?
Me: I could go have lunch and come back
Doctor: Ok, when you come back, get an MRI done on the first floor

In Canada, I'd be in agony for months and probably drive across the border for proper care.
0
D-Day
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#590
Report 10 years ago
#590
(Original post by Made in the USA)
I read the whole thing. It's findings are based on subjective data, which is not really good for much. Most people only have experience with their own system and don't know how good or bad they have it.

Let me walk you though a recent experience I had at a US hospital and you tell me if such a discussion would ever occur in another country.

Doctor: So, you're knee hurts when I bent it like this?
Me: Yes
Doctor: I'll have to do an MRI to see what's going on inside...are you busy in an hour and 1/2?
Me: I could go have lunch and come back
Doctor: Ok, when you come back, get an MRI done on the first floor

In Canada, I'd be in agony for months and probably drive across the border for proper care.
:rofl:
0
Made in the USA
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#591
Report 10 years ago
#591
D-Day, my point was, at least I've used the healthcare systems of many different countries. That's more than most people here can say. Full of opinions, but no useful first hand experience
0
D-Day
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#592
Report 10 years ago
#592
Yes, because one person is a representative generalization of an entire system.
0
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#593
Report 10 years ago
#593
(Original post by Made in the USA)
For the people who are insured and get instant treatment, none of us are willing to compromise our care to get the legitimately uninsured 12 million (the 45 million number is a lie) covered by Obamacare. .
17.2% of the non-elderly are uninsured (source). That fits perfectly well with the 45 million number.
(Original post by Made in the USA)
I won't accept waiting lists or rationing to extend coverage to those who have no insurance because I think we can have our cake and eat it too. There are ways to fix the existing system, get those 12 million covered, and not lower the quality of the other 288 million. I think there are private-sector based solutions that could "fix" the existing system and make coverage available to those 12 million people.
But you already do accept rationing. In the US the rationing is based on who can pay rather than need. If you base it on need rather than ability to pay. And you wouldn't be lowering quality - in terms of healthcare outcomes, some of the developed world usually outperforms the US, despite the amount of healthcare.

I suggest you look at the video below - it is an apolitical analysis of the healthcare reform and shows exactly why the US healthcare system needs to be reformed, regardless of whether of the number of uninsured.
Edit: Embed won't work - the video is on this link http://brightcove.newscientist.com/s...id=30583310001
0
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#594
Report 10 years ago
#594
(Original post by Made in the USA)
I read the whole thing. It's findings are based on subjective data, which is not really good for much. Most people only have experience with their own system and don't know how good or bad they have it.
So you'll match my well-researched data ...... with anaecdoctal evidence?
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Let me walk you though a recent experience I had at a US hospital and you tell me if such a discussion would ever occur in another country.

Doctor: So, you're knee hurts when I bent it like this?
Me: Yes
Doctor: I'll have to do an MRI to see what's going on inside...are you busy in an hour and 1/2?
Me: I could go have lunch and come back
Doctor: Ok, when you come back, get an MRI done on the first floor

In Canada, I'd be in agony for months and probably drive across the border for proper care.
And here's the kicker (no pun intended) - the MRI probably won't help you. Your knee hurting could be due to one of a number of a myriad of things - the MRI will only reveal it if it's one of a select number of conditions. Meanwhile your healthcare costs rocket.

The problem with US healthcare is that they don't use evidence-based medicine - medicine whereby the diagnostic tests and intervention with the best outcomes are used preferentially. And why should they? If I can tell you that you've got a septic knee (possibly the most dangerous and first cause to rule out in your situation) by just aspirating your knee, I can't charge you as much as if I wack you into an MRI, despite the former being the better diagnostic test.

Again another apolitical analysis relevent to this point here
0
Captain Crash
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#595
Report 10 years ago
#595
(Original post by Made in the USA)
D-Day, my point was, at least I've used the healthcare systems of many different countries. That's more than most people here can say. Full of opinions, but no useful first hand experience
Because the plural of anecdotes is data.... :rolleyes:

We may be 'full of opinions' but we've also got well-researched data that backs up our opinions. What have you got to back up your 'first hand experience'.
0
Made in the USA
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#596
Report 10 years ago
#596
(Original post by Captain Crash)
Because the plural of anecdotes is data.... :rolleyes:

We may be 'full of opinions' but we've also got well-researched data that backs up our opinions. What have you got to back up your 'first hand experience'.
Your commonweath report that you wanted me to read was entirely based on subjective data, and now you think subjective data is crap? I'll have to respond to the rest of the data later. I have a job fair to get to.
0
CrazyPyramid
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#597
Report 10 years ago
#597
Made in the USA: Proof that the more money you have, the more influence you have.
0
yeahm8justhavina****
Badges: 0
#598
Report 10 years ago
#598
If Obama creates and maintains a successful state healthcare system he will be remembered as the greatest American President since FDR.
0
Made in the USA
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#599
Report 10 years ago
#599
(Original post by yeahm8justhavina****)
If Obama creates and maintains a successful state healthcare system he will be remembered as the greatest American President since FDR.
FDR was one of the worst presidents in US history. He turned what should have been a fairly routine downturn into a prolonged depression.

If creating a state healthcare system is Obama's path to greatness, then why is it that the closer he gets to passing his plan, the more his approval numbers drop?
0
D-Day
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#600
Report 10 years ago
#600
(Original post by Made in the USA)
FDR was one of the worst presidents in US history. He turned what should have been a fairly routine downturn into a prolonged depression.
"A 1999 survey by C-SPAN found that by a wide margin academic historians consider Abraham Lincoln, George Washington and Roosevelt the three greatest presidents, consistent with other surveys.[109] Roosevelt is the sixth most admired person from the 20th century by US citizens, according to Gallup.[110][111]"

Also, tell me how roughly a quarter of the work force being unable to find work is "a fairly routine downturn."

edit: If Wikipedia is not a good enough source for you, here is the list of sources cited in the quote I just posted.

# ^ Thomas A. Bailey, Presidential Greatness (1966), a non quantitative appraisal by leading historian;
Degregorio, William A. The Complete Book of U.S. Presidents. 4th ed. New York: Avenel, 1993. Contains the results of the 1962 and 1982 surveys;
Charles and Richard Faber The American Presidents Ranked by Performance (2000);
Felzenberg, Alvin S. “There You Go Again: Liberal Historians and the New York Times Deny Ronald Reagan His Due,” Policy Review, March—April 1997.;
Melvin G. Holli. The American Mayor: The Best & the Worst Big-City Leaders (1999);
Miller, Nathan. Star-Spangled Men America's Ten Worst Presidents (1999);
Murray, Robert K. and Tim H. Blessing. Greatness in the White House: Rating the Presidents, from Washington Through Ronald Reagan (1994);
Pfiffner, James P. ; "Ranking the Presidents: Continuity and Volatility" White House Studies, Vol. 3, 2003 pp 23+;
Ridings, William J., Jr. and Stuart B. McIver. Rating the Presidents: A Ranking of U.S. leaders, from the Great and Honorable to the Dishonest and Incompetent. Secaucus, NJ: Carol Publishing, 1997. ISBN 0-8065-1799-9.;
Schlesinger, Jr. Arthur M. "Ranking the Presidents: From Washington to Clinton," Political Science Quarterly (1997) 112:179-90;
Skidmore, Max J. Presidential Performance: A Comprehensive Review (2004);
Skidmore, Max J. "Ranking and Evaluating Presidents: The Case of Theodore Roosevelt" White House Studies. Volume: 1. Issue: 4. 2001. pp 495+.;
Taranto, James and Leonard Leo, eds. Presidential Leadership: Rating the Best and Worst in the White House. New York: Wall Street Journal Books, 2004. ISBN 0-7432-5433-3, for Federalist Society surveys.;
Vedder, Richard and Gallaway, Lowell, "Rating Presidential Performance" in Reassessing the Presidency: The Rise of the Executive State and the Decline of Freedom ed. John V. Denson, Mises Institute, 2001. ISBN 0-945466-29-3
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Have you made up your mind on your five uni choices?

Yes I know where I'm applying (158)
59.18%
No I haven't decided yet (63)
23.6%
Yes but I might change my mind (46)
17.23%

Watched Threads

View All