Power cuts right across the country Watch

Fullofsurprises
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#41
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#41
Can't help wondering if these providers disconnected due to non-payment of their bills.
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claireestelle
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#42
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(Original post by Blue_Cow)
No idea, but my London to Edinburgh journey has taken 12 hours in total because of this power failure. This journey should only take 4 hr 19 mins...

Train was scheduled for about 6:30pm yesterday

LNER got a train organised at about 10:45 going up to Newcastle

And any stops from Newcastle onwards, they arranged taxis.

Absolutely mental.
Hope you got your delay repay
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Blue_Cow
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#43
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(Original post by claireestelle)
Hope you got your delay repay
Only just woke up :rofl: Will claim soon :lol:
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claireestelle
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#44
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(Original post by Blue_Cow)
Only just woke up :rofl: Will claim soon :lol:
If you bought it online I think virgins is supposed to be automatically done these days.
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Joinedup
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#45
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TBH I think this story and the near collapse of the dam near greater Manchester last week are showing us that we've got a problem with rubbishy underinvested in infrastructure in the UK.

Pretty sure it's insufficient investment and management short termism at the root of it. Cost cutting has IMO become a fetish, you can do it for a year and probably nothing bad will happen if you were in a sensible place to start with... doesn't mean you should do it for ten years on the trot.

For managers If you make it through a year on 80% of the budget you should have been spending, that's in danger of becoming your new target... if you then manage to spend 75% of what you should the year after, the suits at head office will look at their spreadsheets and say what a clever manager you are and you'll probably be given a bonus. and so on.
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Fullofsurprises
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#46
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(Original post by Joinedup)
TBH I think this story and the near collapse of the dam near greater Manchester last week are showing us that we've got a problem with rubbishy underinvested in infrastructure in the UK.

Pretty sure it's insufficient investment and management short termism at the root of it. Cost cutting has IMO become a fetish, you can do it for a year and probably nothing bad will happen if you were in a sensible place to start with... doesn't mean you should do it for ten years on the trot.

For managers If you make it through a year on 80% of the budget you should have been spending, that's in danger of becoming your new target... if you then manage to spend 75% of what you should the year after, the suits at head office will look at their spreadsheets and say what a clever manager you are and you'll probably be given a bonus. and so on.
It's the pressure from the extremist model of capitalism now in operation in the UK. We imported it from the US, where public infrastructure has been crumbling for decades and many basic facilities such as water, power, roads, railways, airports and bridges are in a state of disrepair and subject to numerous and regular failures. The same is developing here on what was once a solid and well founded national infrastructure. Money that should be routinely invested is instead being distributed to 'shareholders', eg, hedge funds, overseas oligarchs, China, Russia, Dubai, Qatar and the state operators of other countries in sectors where no state operator is permitted here.
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z-hog
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#47
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Can I be the first of many to wonder if it could have been a cyber-attack? We'd be told exactly the same thing, that two plants failed and that was it. There was a glitch with BA's computer system earlier in the week, lot of disruption there too.

# just sayin'
Last edited by z-hog; 1 week ago
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Rakas21
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#48
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It's the pressure from the extremist model of capitalism now in operation in the UK. We imported it from the US, where public infrastructure has been crumbling for decades and many basic facilities such as water, power, roads, railways, airports and bridges are in a state of disrepair and subject to numerous and regular failures. The same is developing here on what was once a solid and well founded national infrastructure. Money that should be routinely invested is instead being distributed to 'shareholders', eg, hedge funds, overseas oligarchs, China, Russia, Dubai, Qatar and the state operators of other countries in sectors where no state operator is permitted here.
I don't think we can reasonably blame this failing on capitalism in general given that Transco National Grid is a monopoly granted license by the British State (one that as i say, i am sympathetic to removing). Granted i cannot say what portion of their profits are reinvested on maintaining the Infrastructure vs provided as dividends (it's a US firm).
(Original post by z-hog)
Can I be the first of many to wonder if it could have been a cyber-attack? We'd be told exactly the same thing, that two plants failed and that was it. There was a glitch with BA's computer system earlier in the week, lot of disruption there too.

# just sayin'
It has been confirmed as not a cyber attack.
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Fullofsurprises
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#49
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#49
(Original post by Rakas21)
I don't think we can reasonably blame this failing on capitalism in general given that Transco National Grid is a monopoly granted license by the British State (one that as i say, i am sympathetic to removing). Granted i cannot say what portion of their profits are reinvested on maintaining the Infrastructure vs provided as dividends (it's a US firm).
Well it's noteworthy that the markets threw a minor fit when the regulator recently stated that the cash-cow oligopoly gravy train that are Britain's utilities would no longer be pouring quite so much easy cash out to NG's shareholder base.
https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk...national-grid/

Clearly the 'markets' assumed that National Grid was their *****.
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Nalk1573
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#50
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We are a third world country that can't sustain itself with electricity.

It has nothing to do with immigration.

It is because our entire country is owned by foreign banks and megacorporations based in Shanghai, New York and Singapore.
A recent report showed about 46% of the population pay no tax. We have millions of British people who have nothing to do.
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Smack
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#51
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(Original post by Joinedup)
TBH I think this story and the near collapse of the dam near greater Manchester last week are showing us that we've got a problem with rubbishy underinvested in infrastructure in the UK.

Pretty sure it's insufficient investment and management short termism at the root of it. Cost cutting has IMO become a fetish, you can do it for a year and probably nothing bad will happen if you were in a sensible place to start with... doesn't mean you should do it for ten years on the trot.

For managers If you make it through a year on 80% of the budget you should have been spending, that's in danger of becoming your new target... if you then manage to spend 75% of what you should the year after, the suits at head office will look at their spreadsheets and say what a clever manager you are and you'll probably be given a bonus. and so on.
Do we know what led to the failures at the Hornsea wind farm and the gas station at Little Barford? The probability of both of them failing at essentially exactly the same time seems incredibility low to me.

I'm trying to Google it but not having much luck at a more detailed explanation beyond what is offered at the major news outlets. Some blogs are suggesting it might be essentially a wind-power related failure. There seemed to be a sudden drop in wind power generation at the same time of the power cuts. According to the owners, Little Barford automatically disconnects when demand drops below 23 GW, so it seemed to shut down as planned implying no failure with their equipment.

Just half an hour before the power cut I believe that the UK reached a record high of electricity being generated due to wind. Might this have been essentially due to issues with grid management?
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Joinedup
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(Original post by Smack)
Do we know what led to the failures at the Hornsea wind farm and the gas station at Little Barford? The probability of both of them failing at essentially exactly the same time seems incredibility low to me.

I'm trying to Google it but not having much luck at a more detailed explanation beyond what is offered at the major news outlets. Some blogs are suggesting it might be essentially a wind-power related failure. There seemed to be a sudden drop in wind power generation at the same time of the power cuts. According to the owners, Little Barford automatically disconnects when demand drops below 23 GW, so it seemed to shut down as planned implying no failure with their equipment.

Just half an hour before the power cut I believe that the UK reached a record high of electricity being generated due to wind. Might this have been essentially due to issues with grid management?
Well I don't have any inside information I'm afraid... I expect those that know aren't talking for fear of dropping their employer in it.
FWIW My initial pet theory was geomagnetic storm (This has been the cause of cascading failures in the USA in the past) but there doesn't seem to have been anything significant recorded for the day of these blackouts.

The Germans were early adopters of wind generation and there was a lot being written about the destabilising effect on their electricity grid a few years back... https://www.instituteforenergyresear...lectric-grids/
They might have found some way of mitigating the instability lately cos the story seems to have simmered down over there afaict.
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z-hog
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#53
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(Original post by Rakas21)
It has been confirmed as not a cyber attack.
Oh, I missed that. Sure, if it has been confirmed that it wasn't... it wasn't.
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Smack
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#54
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(Original post by Joinedup)
Well I don't have any inside information I'm afraid... I expect those that know aren't talking for fear of dropping their employer in it.
FWIW My initial pet theory was geomagnetic storm (This has been the cause of cascading failures in the USA in the past) but there doesn't seem to have been anything significant recorded for the day of these blackouts.

The Germans were early adopters of wind generation and there was a lot being written about the destabilising effect on their electricity grid a few years back... https://www.instituteforenergyresear...lectric-grids/
They might have found some way of mitigating the instability lately cos the story seems to have simmered down over there afaict.
Yes it seems that information about this recent incident isn't readily forthcoming. Orsted, the company who operate the wind farm that failed, still have not published what happened.

To be honest, after finding out the Javid was at NG not long before the power cut, and the "It's wind o'clock!" tweet I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to show off or reach some kind of record for wind power, and were maybe a bit too optimistic about how much they could get...

Regarding your article, grid (in)stability isn't something I know anything about, but I believe Germany has been using coal-fired power stations to help with this?
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Joinedup
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#55
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(Original post by Smack)
Yes it seems that information about this recent incident isn't readily forthcoming. Orsted, the company who operate the wind farm that failed, still have not published what happened.

To be honest, after finding out the Javid was at NG not long before the power cut, and the "It's wind o'clock!" tweet I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to show off or reach some kind of record for wind power, and were maybe a bit too optimistic about how much they could get...

Regarding your article, grid (in)stability isn't something I know anything about, but I believe Germany has been using coal-fired power stations to help with this?
I think it'd be quite funny if they busted the grid by showing off for a politician.

If I had to guess it was probably something like this (I found buried in wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._2008_incident

Traditionally the grid operator has been able to reduce demand by tweaking down the frequency of the AC and/or lowering the voltage and these methods work well on traditional loads like motors, heaters, filament bulbs etc. Increasingly we're using non-traditional loads like the power brick on a laptop. If you look at a laptop powerbrick it'll be rated something like 100V-240V 50Hz-60Hz... and you don't need to tell it what to expect, it'll just take as much power out of the grid as it needs regardless of the network voltage or frequency providing there's some usable AC there. That's not particularly a problem with 60 or 100W laptop power bricks but I think it will be when electric vehicles really take off and half the country gets home from work and want to plug into something like this rated at (say) 7kW. That's going to be a large proportion of the electric power demand in the country that doesn't respond to the usual top down load management from the grid.

It'll be a lot less simple managing a stable grid in the future and we'll have to start worrying about the versions of firmware that are in the embedded equipment at solar and wing generators and stuff like that... do you want that stuff connected to the internet to check for new firmware? I probably don't tbh (for reasons including cyber security as already alluded to above)
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Fullofsurprises
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#56
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(Original post by Smack)
Yes it seems that information about this recent incident isn't readily forthcoming. Orsted, the company who operate the wind farm that failed, still have not published what happened.

To be honest, after finding out the Javid was at NG not long before the power cut, and the "It's wind o'clock!" tweet I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to show off or reach some kind of record for wind power, and were maybe a bit too optimistic about how much they could get...

Regarding your article, grid (in)stability isn't something I know anything about, but I believe Germany has been using coal-fired power stations to help with this?
Or did the government just instruct the grid to blame wind power as their supporters don't care for it?

I wonder if we will ever hear the real reason for this escapade and as they grow more frequent, will the government to anything but lie and spin?
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Smack
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Or did the government just instruct the grid to blame wind power as their supporters don't care for it?
The UK government is pro-wind (although many of its core voters probably aren't), and has not instructed NG to blame wind.

I wonder if we will ever hear the real reason for this escapade and as they grow more frequent, will the government to anything but lie and spin?
If incidents such as this grow more frequent, it will almost inevitably be as a result of a combination of increasing use of intermittent sources of electricity such as wind (which was providing a very high amount of electricity on Friday) and solar, and non-traditional loads like as Joinedup says (assuming things with large batteries like electric cars take off). I don't believe the government will point the finger at either of them; if anything I would expect attention to be diverted away from the challenges and risks to grid stability associated with intermittent sources such as wind and solar, which are likely to provide an increase share of our electricity in the future.
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Joinedup
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Or did the government just instruct the grid to blame wind power as their supporters don't care for it?

I wonder if we will ever hear the real reason for this escapade and as they grow more frequent, will the government to anything but lie and spin?
Seems unlikely. Afaict there are pro-wind tories and antis
If they were going to false flag an innocent party to heal the division in the party, surely it'd be the perdiferous French https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel
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Fullofsurprises
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#59
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(Original post by Joinedup)
Seems unlikely. Afaict there are pro-wind tories and antis
If they were going to false flag an innocent party to heal the division in the party, surely it'd be the perdiferous French https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel
I was maybe going a bit too far, but blaming the French, don't tell Boris.
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