Veganism - to save the world? Watch

Veni_vidi
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#61
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#61
(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
Most mothers can breast feed without a problem. And breast feeding does not have to stop just because the child can walk.

Milk isn't some magical vitamin which would have made her healthy. She could have got all the nutrients in milk from other sources. Her diet was obviously very badly planned by her parents - that is the problem, not her veganism.
you said infants need milk, not older children, i was pointing out that infants are children ages 1 or less in britain, so just proving your point that children aged one or above don't need milk, if you are saying breast milk alone is enough for the child can you imagine breast feeding your child at the age of 10,
the girls dairy-free diet rectified her condition obviously as the symptoms are known to be lack of calcium.
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nolongerhearthemusic
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#62
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#62
(Original post by marcusfox)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/op...3bd4bc&ei=5090

Marcus
These stories are caused by poorly planned vegan diets and idiot parents, not vegan diets themselves. Shockingly, you don't hear about all the vegan children who turn out healthy.
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jgupta
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#63
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(Original post by Sarahl89)
well yeah fair enough, but the OPs idea is different to this as it could actually be beneficial to us - ie, potentially healthier lifesytle, better food supplies, saving money - so not compromising our current affluent lifestyles. i know there are alot more issues involved aswell as food supply & they would obviously be taken into account, & i think could overall work with the OPs idea..
I think I agree with your reasoning, but my point was that the reasons the OP gave were not sufficient to justify his position if that makes sense.

Personally, I agree that we need to do something, but it does not need to be as drastic as us all resorting to veganism.

There is *no* way that meat prices should be as low as they currently are in the west - some organisation / union / body needs to step in to make sure they are set at a fair price.
Biofuels are causing a huge problem with land...and they are merely a stepping stone to nuclear fuel (another thing which people are unjustifiably scared of) which itself is only a stepping stone to give scientists more time to make solar power more efficient...
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nolongerhearthemusic
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Veni_vidi)
you said infants need milk, not older children, i was pointing out that infants are children ages 1 or less in britain, so just proving your point that children aged one or above don't need milk, if you are saying breast milk alone is enough for the child can you imagine breast feeding your child at the age of 10,
Children don't need milk until the age of 10.


(Original post by Veni_vidi)
the girls dairy-free diet rectified her condition obviously as the symptoms are known to be lack of calcium.
Milk is not the only source of calcium. Again, calcium deficiency caused by bad diet planning by her parents, not by lack of milk.
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marcusfox
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#65
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#65
(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
These stories are caused by poorly planned vegan diets and idiot parents, not vegan diets themselves. Shockingly, you don't hear about all the vegan children who turn out healthy.
Did you even read the article? Your reply came very shortly after I posted the link, and that excludes the time taken to write your reply. Head in the sand perhaps?

Marcus
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Gancor
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#66
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#66
Meat is more expensive than any other food by far as it is.
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nolongerhearthemusic
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#67
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#67
(Original post by marcusfox)
Did you even read the article? Your reply came very shortly after I posted the link, and that excludes the time taken to write your reply. Head in the sand perhaps?

Marcus
I've read that one before. My point still stands.
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xaxa
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#68
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#68
(Original post by Gancor)
lol @ people think eating meat is unhealthy.

Lean beef is healthy as it can be, it contains every single amino acid your body needs in one serving, high protein which your body needs to rebuild tissue, essential minerals and isn't hugely calorific.

I drink 2.5 litres of whole milk a day and eat meat with every single meal, along with a source of carbs and vegetables with every meal. I am the healthiest I have ever been in my life. I used to weigh 117lb before I started eating properly.

(I also take multivitamins everyday, I have the most complete diet you can imagine. Screw veganism).
That doesn't sound like a balanced diet. 2500ml of milk is 125% of your RDA of fat. But maybe you're very physically active.
If you have a balanced diet you don't need supplements either -- that's the point ;-).

(Original post by stolenstars)
If they forced everyone to do it, there would be a lot of effort into making nice tasting substitutes.
Since hardly anyone is vegan, vagan food tastes pretty bad
Real vegan food is very nice actually (I'm not vegan).
Vegan imitation food ("vegan hamburger!" "vegan chicken!") is disgusting though, and I don't know why anyone buys it -- in fact, none of the vegans or vegetarians I know use any of these products.
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marcusfox
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#69
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#69
(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
I've read that one before. My point still stands.
Oh you've read it before? Did you recognise the think and not bother? How about "you've heard a similar argument before"?

I don't believe your point stands, since the same nutrients are not available in soya milk as in mother's natural milk, and I doubt a vegan mother would be producing correct nutrients if she was breastfeeding.

Marcus
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Joanna May
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#70
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#70
(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
I know, I'm just pointing out that while meat isn't 100% unhealthy, it's also not 100% healthy.
The pros far outweigh the cons.

(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
If the parents are choosing to be vegan, they can feed soya formula. If they are willing to compromise their veganism, normal formula.
I was allergic to soya milk as a baby, and I wasn't breastfed either. Therefore, a vegan diet would have made me VERY unhealthy or possibly dead. A vegan diet can be harmful for some children, as well as some adults, so you can't claim that everyone can live by it. The way things stand at the moment, everyone is happy. Imposing a limit on the amoutn of meat one eats, or forcing them into a vegan diet means a lot of people are sick or unhealthy.
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Gancor
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#71
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#71
(Original post by xaxa)
That doesn't sound like a balanced diet. 2500ml of milk is 125% of your RDA of fat. But maybe you're very physically active.
If you have a balanced diet you don't need supplements either -- that's the point ;-).
Recommended daily amount is for the average joe who does no exercise, has hardly any lean muscle mass and is skinny-fat.

I'm an ectomorph, I don't exactly store much fat, I lift heavy weights 5 days a week I need all the calories I can get to put on weight and muscle mass.

I also take multivitamins just for the sake of it. Tearing down muscle fibres and rebuilding them larger takes it's toll on vitamin and mineral levels.
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nolongerhearthemusic
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#72
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#72
(Original post by marcusfox)
Oh you've read it before? How about "you've heard a similar argument before"?

I don't believe your point stands, since the same nutrients are not available in soya milk as in mother's natural milk, and I doubt a vegan mother would be producing correct nutrients if she was breastfeeding.

Marcus
No, I had read it before.

soy milk and fruit juice, even in seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a quality infant formula.

There is such thing as soy formula. Feeding soy milk and apple juice is as stupid as feeding cows milk and apple juice, as opposed to actual formula.
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she
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#73
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#73
People shouldn't turn vegan or vegetarian, we just need to eat a lot less meat products then we do now.
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Sarahl89
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#74
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#74
(Original post by jgupta)
Biofuels are causing a huge problem with land...and they are merely a stepping stone to nuclear fuel (another thing which people are unjustifiably scared of) which itself is only a stepping stone to give scientists more time to make solar power more efficient...
I don't think its unjustified to be wary of nuclear power - the waste disposal is still quite unsafe and although the technology now is very safe and efficient, human error increases the risks of a major nuclear leak alottt. Aswell as the way the world is going nowadays, with a larger number of nuclear power stations, all it would take is one strategically placed bomb to send nuclear radiation right across the country. I wouldn't be overly happy with one opening up where i live, anyway.

I think wind power is the way to go for the UK, they're already building loads more at the moment and have quotas set to increase renewable energy sources in the next few years or face fines anyway so hopefully that'll work as a good enough incentive :]
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nolongerhearthemusic
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#75
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#75
(Original post by Joanna May)
The pros far outweigh the cons.
I don't see it that way. I am vegetarian for health reasons.


(Original post by Joanna May)
I was allergic to soya milk as a baby, and I wasn't breastfed either. Therefore, a vegan diet would have made me VERY unhealthy or possibly dead. A vegan diet can be harmful for some children, as well as some adults, so you can't claim that everyone can live by it. The way things stand at the moment, everyone is happy. Imposing a limit on the amoutn of meat one eats, or forcing them into a vegan diet means a lot of people are sick or unhealthy.
Okay. I'm not advocating everyone bringing up their child on a vegan diet AT ALL. I'm saying that a vegan diet, done right (and without the child having pre-existing health problems such as allergies), does not make the child automatically unhealthy.
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Bateman
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#76
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#76
No don't even go to veganism, it's wrong.. families who inforce this on their children need to go to prison, i know of two vegans, and they get sick periodically and are pasty pale.

We will never fully stop world hunger...

people are too greedy, companies want bigger margins so they pay poor farmers very little just because they can.

counties stockpile food to control food costs.

And anyhow, even if we do sort this out and start helping african countries, their greedy government is going to sell it on which is what is happening all over the world.
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Veni_vidi
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#77
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#77
(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
Children don't need milk until the age of 10.




Milk is not the only source of calcium. Again, calcium deficiency caused by bad diet planning by her parents, not by lack of milk.
how can you say children don't need milk, i need milk and am way older than 10, i take tablet for going through i phase of not drinking milk when i was 13.
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Gancor
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#78
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#78
(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
I don't see it that way. I am vegetarian for health reasons.
Are you by chance skinny-fat?
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nolongerhearthemusic
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Veni_vidi)
how can you say children don't need milk, i need milk and am way older than 10, i take tablet for going through i phase of not drinking milk when i was 13.
They don't need milk, they need calcium.

(Original post by Gancor)
Are you by chance skinny-fat?
Pardon?
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marcusfox
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#80
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#80
(Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
No, I had read it before.

soy milk and fruit juice, even in seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a quality infant formula.

There is such thing as soy formula. Feeding soy milk and apple juice is as stupid as feeding cows milk and apple juice, as opposed to actual formula.
Right, if you're going to quote from my article selectively, then how's this.

"I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants.

Indigenous cuisines offer clues about what humans, naturally omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow: traditional vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs for complete protein, essential fats and vitamins. There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run."

Marcus
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