Veganism - to save the world? Watch

nolongerhearthemusic
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#101
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#101
(Original post by marcusfox)
It is normal for humans as a species to eat meat and dairy. What is not normal is to deny others that on your own ethical grounds.

Marcus
I'm not a vegan, and I don't think everyone should be vegan.

I'm not vegetarian on ethical grounds, either.
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Veni_vidi
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#102
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#102
(Original post by marcusfox)
It is normal for humans as a species to eat meat and dairy. What is not normal is to deny others that on your own ethical grounds.

Marcus
thank you marcus
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jgupta
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#103
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#103
(Original post by Sarahl89)
High risk waste actually isnt that safelt contained - the containers have to be changed every few years (cant remember how many) and they can take thousands of years to decay to safe levels - causing potential problems for future generations. Also they're often dumped at sea, away from populated areas, which could cause problems with fish stocks.
And water vapour is actually the most significant greenhouse gas - id quote percentages but they differ so much from one source to another that i dont know which is exactly right - but sources claim %s from anywhere between 60-98% of total greenhouse gases are water vapour.
No, water vapour is literally steam - does not affect the greenhouse effect at all.
The current theory is that molecules of greenhouse gases i.e. methane degenerate into free radicals which react with the O3 which comprises the ozone layer.

I'm not challenging you / being pedantic here but do you have a link about the waste containers needing to be changed? I've been trying to look for more info online but am having trouble finding a decent source (just keep getting 100-odd page patent reports etc)

As I don't know enough about them, I'll assume you're right however, but they can still be stored in deep geological repositories.
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Dill
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#104
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#104
(Original post by marcusfox)
The people who go on and on about trying to justify veganism as being a natural diet are only lying to themselves. How can any diet be natural if you have to take artificially created supplements?
Marcus
As opposed to the man-made cyanocobalamin which you have told us is a vital vitamin?
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The_Professor
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#105
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#105
I *****ing hate Vegans. All of them should be put out of their misery and killed. It's part of the damn food chain to eat animals, so just do it or shut up about it.
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Beckysaurus
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#106
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#106
back to the original question, maybe the problem is not with the amount of food (or lack of, as the case may be) but the distribution of the food we do have.

also, those stories make me sick. the fact is, any diet that doesn't contain the right nutrients will leave someone unhealthy. yes, vegan diets require careful planning, but not every child on a vegan diet is severly unhealthy. the fact is, these parents are idiots! what about children who are allergic to cows milk? lots of babies are allergic to cows milk - i was and had to have soya formula stuff. i turned out ok. i'm vegan now and i'm pretty healthy, i rarely get sick, i've never broken a bone, i'm not too skinny blah blah blaaaah.

i don't know where i'm going with this. it's late. i have an exam tomorrow so i'm going to bed.
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Jelkin
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#107
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#107
If the whole world were vegan, would all pet dogs, cats and other meat-eating pets have to be exterminated? We wouldn't be able to feed them anymore, surely, since no one would be farming meat anymore.
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nolongerhearthemusic
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#108
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#108
(Original post by The_Professor)
I *****ing hate Vegans. All of them should be put out of their misery and killed. It's part of the damn food chain to eat animals, so just do it or shut up about it.
You don't actually need meat, though. And some people are opposed to it for ethical reasons, or simply because they want to be healthier or help the environment. If they want to make that choice, what is it to you?
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SoundDevastation
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#109
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#109
(Original post by jgupta)

Sorry to open so heavy handed, but my point is that there is such a thing as quality of existence.
Veganism doesnt have to sacrifice quality.

I have been vegan for over a year. I recently went to the doctord for blood tests and my vitamin/mineral levels for everything INCLUDING Iron and B12 were ABOVE AVERAGE, and i dont take vitamin supplements or eat stupid amounts of nuts and seeds. He said I was one of the healthiest people he'd ever come across, despite the fact i was there for tiredness (which we eventually put down to too much caffeine). Another positive is that i spend often less than half of what my vegetarian house mates spend on food per week.

YES veganism is an obvious and effective way to tackle both world food shortages and lower carbon emissions... YES it can be healthy without lots of artificial supplements.. no its not 'normal' but the world isnt either.. our planet is changing, we need to change with it. Sticking to what is 'normal' for the sake of - what? tradition? comfort? taste?! - when everything else is changing, is ridiculous. We need to adapt too...
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marcusfox
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#110
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#110
(Original post by Dill)
As opposed to the man-made cyanocobalamin which you have told us is a vital vitamin?
Cyanocobalomin is usually obtained from animal products and not man made, except when bacteria are cultured to produce it, because vegans obviously object to eating animal products. Try to keep up.

Marcus
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marcusfox
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#111
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#111
(Original post by SoundDevastation)
Veganism doesnt have to sacrifice quality.

I have been vegan for over a year. I recently went to the doctord for blood tests and my vitamin/mineral levels for everything INCLUDING Iron and B12 were ABOVE AVERAGE, and i dont take vitamin supplements or eat stupid amounts of nuts and seeds. He said I was one of the healthiest people he'd ever come across, despite the fact i was there for tiredness (which we eventually put down to too much caffeine). Another positive is that i spend often less than half of what my vegetarian house mates spend on food per week....
Well of course they would be since you've been eating a normal human diet for most of your life.

Marcus
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Jelkin
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#112
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#112
(Original post by SoundDevastation)
I have been vegan for over a year. I recently went to the doctord for blood tests and my vitamin/mineral levels for everything INCLUDING Iron and B12 were ABOVE AVERAGE, and i dont take vitamin supplements or eat stupid amounts of nuts and seeds. He said I was one of the healthiest people he'd ever come across, despite the fact i was there for tiredness (which we eventually put down to too much caffeine). Another positive is that i spend often less than half of what my vegetarian house mates spend on food per week.
That's amazing (good for you!) but perhaps you are a lucky exception? I mean, I know some people who smoke and say, "well, my friend's gran smoked from the age of 15 to 90 and never got cancer," but this is clearly a bit silly as it doesn't mean the average person can do the same.
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Beckysaurus
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#113
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#113
(Original post by jgupta)
No, water vapour is literally steam - does not affect the greenhouse effect at all.
The current theory is that molecules of greenhouse gases i.e. methane degenerate into free radicals which react with the O3 which comprises the ozone layer.

I'm not challenging you / being pedantic here but do you have a link about the waste containers needing to be changed? I've been trying to look for more info online but am having trouble finding a decent source (just keep getting 100-odd page patent reports etc)

As I don't know enough about them, I'll assume you're right however, but they can still be stored in deep geological repositories.
i'd say it was a greenhouse gas but a secondary one. as more co2 is released into the atmosphere, it warms and it's ability to hold water vapour increases. this water vapour condenses, forms clouds, traps more heat, more evaporation etc etc so the greenhouse effect is amplified. however, the amount of water vapour released from power stations is insignificant on a global level. or something.


i'm actually going now.
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jgupta
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#114
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#114
(Original post by SoundDevastation)
Veganism doesnt have to sacrifice quality.

I have been vegan for over a year. I recently went to the doctord for blood tests and my vitamin/mineral levels for everything INCLUDING Iron and B12 were ABOVE AVERAGE, and i dont take vitamin supplements or eat stupid amounts of nuts and seeds. He said I was one of the healthiest people he'd ever come across, despite the fact i was there for tiredness (which we eventually put down to too much caffeine). Another positive is that i spend often less than half of what my vegetarian house mates spend on food per week.

YES veganism is an obvious and effective way to tackle both world food shortages and lower carbon emissions... YES it can be healthy without lots of artificial supplements.. no its not 'normal' but the world isnt either.. our planet is changing, we need to change with it. Sticking to what is 'normal' for the sake of - what? tradition? comfort? taste?! - when everything else is changing, is ridiculous. We need to adapt too...
I have a lot of respect for vegetarians / vegans who refuse to eat meat /dairy under the current conditions it is reared in, taking the standpoint that animals go through too much suffering to justify the pleasure we get from eating the meat. I think this is a wholly justifiable position.

However, although something needs to be done about the food crisis, it need not be as drastic as us all changing to veganism. Better conditions for animals would reduce the 'moral' argument for vegetarianism, but I will stick to this topic i.e. land efficiency.

Let's say we all adopt veganism, a few highly restrictive, certainly illegal laws prohibiting the sale or consumption of dairy / meat products later (which would more than likely be defied anyway), it does *not* solve the world's food problem at all.
It may temporarily solve it, but the human population will increase further. At a certain point, human population growth will start to level out - as our resources / cultivation cannot sustain any more people. We see this all the time in animal or tribal populations.

So say the shift to veganism means the earth can support another 10 billion people before it starts to level out...when this happens, we will have to sacrifice some more of the things we like to eat so that it 'solve the hunger problem'...so we live purely off grain. Another 5 billion people can be supported...repeat


In short, this does not solve *anything*, it just sacrifices quality of existence for no good purpose other than delaying the inevitable, when what we should really be doing is balancing the current distribution of food more equally amongst the world population.
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SoundDevastation
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#115
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#115
(Original post by Jelkin)
That's amazing (good for you!) but perhaps you are a lucky exception? I mean, I know some people who smoke and say, "well, my friend's gran smoked from the age of 15 to 90 and never got cancer," but this is clearly a bit silly as it doesn't mean the average person can do the same.
I dont know.. but from recently getting involved in animal rights i know a lot of vegans of all ages (about 4 to.. 70ish) most of whom have been vegan for a very large proportion of their lives and health-wise they don't really differ from the general population. Some a rather skinny, some are overweight, some get ill - but that's just how we are.
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jgupta
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#116
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#116
(Original post by Beckysaurus)
i'd say it was a greenhouse gas but a secondary one. as more co2 is released into the atmosphere, it warms and it's ability to hold water vapour increases. this water vapour condenses, forms clouds, traps more heat, more evaporation etc etc so the greenhouse effect is amplified. however, the amount of water vapour released from power stations is insignificant on a global level. or something.


i'm actually going now.
No, because where is the water coming from in the first place? It is not adding anything to the atmosphere, just using what was already there then re-releasing it.

The difference between that and fossil fuels is that it releases carbon (in the form of CO2) into the atmosphere which was previously stored away as oil, coal or natural gas.
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she
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#117
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#117
(Original post by The_Professor)
I *****ing hate Vegans. All of them should be put out of their misery and killed. It's part of the damn food chain to eat animals, so just do it or shut up about it.

You hate people who aren't doing anything to you and who happen to not want to eat animal products?
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The_Professor
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#118
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#118
(Original post by she)
You hate people who aren't doing anything to you and who happen to not want to eat animal products?
Ye. I hate animals and wan't them all to die. So if someone refuses to harm an animal, I hate them aswell.
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marcusfox
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#119
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#119
(Original post by jgupta)

So say the shift to veganism means the earth can support another 10 billion people before it starts to level out...when this happens, we will have to sacrifice some more of the things we like to eat so that it 'solve the hunger problem'...so we live purely off grain. Another 5 billion people can be supported...repeat


In short, this does not solve *anything*, it just sacrifices quality of existence for no good purpose other than delaying the inevitable, when what we should really be doing is balancing the current distribution of food more equally amongst the world population.
Soylent Green?

Marcus
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Nefarious
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#120
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#120
If everyone became vegan it would lead to an utterly huge drop in biodiversity, we're talking on the epic "oh crap where did all the dinosaurs go" scale. Aside from the loss of the cattle themselves the change in farming methodology would be a disaster.

Secondly lack of food in terms of raw quantity isn't a problem for the world, the problem is where it is.
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