mark68
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Was it ever fair to say I didn’t have GCSE maths and English when i applied for secondary teacher training when I had passed a science degree in the UK? Just a few short years ago I found out that only 18% of the adult population had passed them which was quite surprising and may go some way to explaining the problem.‬

The real question is what does it say about a three year science degree that qualifies you to level 6 of the NQF if teacher training universities accept your degree but don't accept your equvilancy for GCSE English and maths despite the higher level academic work in your degree and you end up as I did with a conditional offer dependent on you passing their equivalency tests often with very little time to prepare. I would say it isn't right.
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999tigger
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(Original post by mark68)
Was it ever fair to say I didn’t have GCSE maths and English when i applied for secondary teacher training when I had passed a science degree in the UK? Just a few short years ago I found out that only 18% of the adult population had passed them which was quite surprising and may go some way to explaining the problem.‬

The real question is what does it say about a three year science degree that qualifies you to level 6 of the NQF if teacher training universities accept your degree but don't accept your equvilancy for GCSE English and maths despite the higher level academic work in your degree and you end up as I did with a conditional offer dependent on you passing their equivalency tests often with very little time to prepare. I would say it isn't right.
Is that what it says in the letter?
What is it you are complaining about?
GCSE Maths and English are usually compulsory for uni entrance these days.
You just meet the same standards as everyone else.
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mark68
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Is that what it says in the letter?
What is it you are complaining about?
GCSE Maths and English are usually compulsory for uni entrance these days.
You just meet the same standards as everyone else.
The condition was that I passed their equivalency test for GCSE English and maths, the thing was the maths was higher tier with a 50% pass mark (not that I couldn't have passed it) but I felt that only having about a month to prepare would have made me stressed going into the proper course so I decided not to do it.

I didn't pass GCSE English and maths when I left school but I did an open university degree foundation course in technology which was always considered the equivalency to GCSE maths then I did an HND and topped up to a degree, the teacher training university would only accept the original GCSEs, I said you must be joking I've got a PGCE in further education already as well but they stood firm and I had to take their equivalency test. Not right or fair, a GCSE is a level 2 qualification a degree is a level 6 qualification, it should trump nearly anything you did at level 2 if the system is working correctly.
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999tigger
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(Original post by mark68)
The condition was that I passed their equivalency test for GCSE English and maths, the thing was the maths was higher tier with a 50% pass mark (not that I couldn't have passed it) but I felt that only having about a month to prepare would have made me stressed going into the proper course so I decided not to do it.

I didn't pass GCSE English and maths when I left school but I did an open university degree foundation course in technology which was always considered the equivalency to GCSE maths then I did an HND and topped up to a degree, the teacher training university would only accept the original GCSEs, I said you must be joking I've got a PGCE in further education already as well but they stood firm and I had to take their equivalency test. Not right or fair, a GCSE is a level 2 qualification a degree is a level 6 qualification, it should trump nearly anything you did at level 2 if the system is working correctly.
Loads of people are required to take it.
These days you wont get into uni without them.
Disagree with you on the other point. Most people just get on with it, as you say level 6 v level 2 should mean the level 2 is easy.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Loads of people are required to take it.
These days you wont get into uni without them.
Disagree with you on the other point. Most people just get on with it, as you say level 6 v level 2 should mean the level 2 is easy.
It's not easy 'The Department for Education and Skills (DfES) uses qualifications as the proxy for literacy and numeracy, and Skills for Life targets anyone over 16 who doesn't have the equivalent of an A*-C GCSE in English and maths. This means that four in five of all adults are included in the target, as 82% of adults don't have a A*-C GCSE or equivalent in English and maths.' But I could have done it but my point is that they should have accepted that I had the equivalency. Why don't people ever understand my thinking?

Actually just to clarify, the higher tier GCSE in maths is quite difficult and a 50% pass mark is unreasonable, last year the pass mark was something like 17%, only about 5 to 10% of the population have that qualification so a month isn't fair for preparation.
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999tigger
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(Original post by mark68)
It's not easy 'The Department for Education and Skills (DfES) uses qualifications as the proxy for literacy and numeracy, and Skills for Life targets anyone over 16 who doesn't have the equivalent of an A*-C GCSE in English and maths. This means that four in five of all adults are included in the target, as 82% of adults don't have a A*-C GCSE or equivalent in English and maths.' But I could have done it but my point is that they should have accepted that I had the equivalency. Why don't people ever understand my thinking?
I dont see why they have to. Rules apply to you just like everyone else. There are numerous qualifications unis accept. They didnt agree with you and they are in charge of the rules.
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mark68
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(Original post by 999tigger)
I dont see why they have to. Rules apply to you just like everyone else. There are numerous qualifications unis accept. They didnt agree with you and they are in charge of the rules.
The fact about this particular university was they would only accept GCSEs or their own equivalency test they wouldn't look at anything else that I had which I felt was counterproductive and unfair to me but they accepted me on condition that I passed their tests.

Just to clarify the passmark for GCSE maths last year
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999tigger
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(Original post by mark68)
The fact about this particular university was they would only accept GCSEs or their own equivalency test they wouldn't look at anything else that I had which I felt was counterproductive and unfair to me but they accepted me on condition that I passed their tests.

Just to clarify the passmark for GCSE maths last year
They now say

Additionally you must have GCSE grade C / grade 4 or above in English, Maths and Science (or equivalent) or be taking/retaking them this year. We also accept the equivalency tests by Equivalency Testing, A Star Teachers or any other appropriately accredited provider. We cannot accept functional skills or key skills or IELTS.


Get GCSE which is know by everyone years in advance or take one of the tests. If you dont have the qualifications then find someone else that will accept you. Not sure why its that hard.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
They now say

Additionally you must have GCSE grade C / grade 4 or above in English, Maths and Science (or equivalent) or be taking/retaking them this year. We also accept the equivalency tests by Equivalency Testing, A Star Teachers or any other appropriately accredited provider. We cannot accept functional skills or key skills or IELTS.


Get GCSE which is know by everyone years in advance or take one of the tests. If you dont have the qualifications then find someone else that will accept you. Not sure why its that hard.
What they're saying is basically the same but there shouldn't be anything wrong with accepting IELTS or key skills, but that's basically where I fell short I didn't have their equvilancey but I had already passed a PGCE in further education and a degree and I felt that they were important to consider as it raises questions as to what a GCSE in English and maths really is and also what a degree really is.

Just to say I also had an interview at the IOE that year they said I needed to show more commitment to the course and a higher expectation of young people in an educational setting... The interview question as i remember 'you hand out homework to a class of thirty children and only three hand it in what do you do?' My answer was you forget about it The correct answer probably something like 'check for understanding, clarify the task, check that the question offers opportunities for different learning styles etc

Is the problem with me?

I don't have what it takes to apply again.
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999tigger
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(Original post by mark68)
What they're saying is basically the same but there shouldn't be anything wrong with accepting IELTS or key skills, but that's basically where I fell short I didn't have their equvilancey but I had already passed a PGCE in further education and a degree and I felt that they were important to consider as it raises questions as to what a GCSE in English and maths really is and also what a degree really is.

Just to say I also had an interview at the IOE that year they said I needed to show more commitment to the course and a higher expectation of young people in an educational setting... The interview question as i remember 'you hand out homework to a class of thirty children and only three hand it in what do you do?' My answer was you forget about it The correct answer probably something like 'check for understanding, clarify the task, check that the question offers opportunities for different learning styles etc

Is the problem with me?

I don't have what it takes to apply again.
Wrong they are different and not as thorough.
If you dont like it find another uni willing to take you.
For most people if they request GCSE and you dont have it then they study for it and take the exam.
For most courses you wouldnt get into uni without it these days.
The requirements are well known and you simply check them beforehand so you have them in time.
Anyone asking on these forums including those failing GCSE today or getting on access courses will be advised to obtain them. If you dont have them then they are free.

You werent prepared to do that and bother people do bother to get GCSE. It was your choice. Yes the problem is with you.
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mark68
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Wrong they are different and not as thorough.
If you dont like it find another uni willing to take you.
For most people if they request GCSE and you dont have it then they study for it and take the exam.
For most courses you wouldnt get into uni without it these days.
The requirements are well known and you simply check them beforehand so you have them in time.
Anyone asking on these forums including those failing GCSE today or getting on access courses will be advised to obtain them. If you dont have them then they are free.

You werent prepared to do that and bother people do bother to get GCSE. It was your choice. Yes the problem is with you.
Your opinion is very strong given that I have a PGCE already I think my point remains valid because it would be absurd at face value to pass a degree in the UK but struggle to get something of a similar construct that you take at 15 years old, also I applied to middlesex in clearing and wasn't much interested in studying there anyway. A GCSE is a fig leaf and if you pass the PGCE entry written test, the interview, the GTTR application process and have a degree then lighten up on the course you took or didn't take at 15.

How thorough is a three hour exam in your third year of university, or a 3,000 word essay, it's belt and braces to question your English unless I'm wrong for reasons I don't know? I actually enrolled on GCSE English and maths the year before I applied to do the PGCE in secondary education and the courses were simply full of children with mostly childish points of view. (I didn't complete the courses because I moved to a different town)
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999tigger
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(Original post by mark68)
Your opinion is very strong given that I have a PGCE already I think my point remains valid because it would be absurd at face value to pass a degree in the UK but struggle to get something of a similar construct that you take at 15 years old, also I applied to middlesex in clearing and wasn't much interested in studying there anyway. A GCSE is a fig leaf and if you pass the PGCE entry written test, the interview, the GTTR application process and have a degree then lighten up on the course you took or didn't take at 15.
Not really. It is a standard requirement for uni, college and employment these days.
You didnt have it and you didnt have the foresight to get it or what they considered to be acceptable alternative hence as they make the rules and you couldnt be bothered you didnt get a place. Looks like you both got it right you didnt fancy it and they didnt fancy taking you. Not seeing you have a point. Meet the requirements or find somewhere else it isnt hard.
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Not really. It is a standard requirement for uni, college and employment these days.
You didnt have it and you didnt have the foresight to get it or what they considered to be acceptable alternative hence as they make the rules and you couldnt be bothered you didnt get a place. Looks like you both got it right you didnt fancy it and they didnt fancy taking you. Not seeing you have a point. Meet the requirements or find somewhere else it isnt hard.
I see your point. My point is I left school in the mid eighties without much in the way of education like about 60% of school leavers at the time, I went on to do quite well despite that, why then the insistence that I have a qualification that is taken at 15 years old and as I've shown only need an 18% pass mark. They did accept me by the way, I could have taken the tests I just decided not to, I think they lost out. By the way your tone of language is not suitable for how and what I've been writing.
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(Original post by mark68)
The condition was that I passed their equivalency test for GCSE English and maths, the thing was the maths was higher tier with a 50% pass mark (not that I couldn't have passed it) but I felt that only having about a month to prepare would have made me stressed going into the proper course so I decided not to do it.

I didn't pass GCSE English and maths when I left school but I did an open university degree foundation course in technology which was always considered the equivalency to GCSE maths then I did an HND and topped up to a degree, the teacher training university would only accept the original GCSEs, I said you must be joking I've got a PGCE in further education already as well but they stood firm and I had to take their equivalency test. Not right or fair, a GCSE is a level 2 qualification a degree is a level 6 qualification, it should trump nearly anything you did at level 2 if the system is working correctly.
I've got a masters degree in history of art, but I wouldn't dream of considering it 'trumping' a GCSE in English - they are clearly very different things.
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mark68
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(Original post by 2500_2)
I've got a masters degree in history of art, but I wouldn't dream of considering it 'trumping' a GCSE in English - they are clearly very different things.
National qualifications framework outcomes for your master's degree and my M-level PGCE first 'Holder reformulates and uses practical, conceptual or technological knowledge and understanding of a subject or field of work to create ways forward in contexts where there are many interacting factors. Holder critically analyses, interprets and evaluates complex information, concepts and theories to produce modified conceptions. Holder understands the wider contexts in which the area of study or work is located. Holder understands current developments in the area of study or work. Holder understands different theoretical and methodological perspectives and how they affect the area of study or work.
AND/OR
Holder can use specialised skills to conceptualise and address problematic situations that involve many interacting factors. Holder can determine and use appropriate methodologies and approaches. Holder can design and undertake research, development or strategic activities to inform or produce change in the area of work or study. Holder can critically evaluate actions, methods and results and their short- and long-term implications.'


The outcomes for level 2 qualifications like a GCSE 'Has knowledge and understanding of facts, procedures and ideas in an area of study or field of work to complete well-defined tasks and address straightforward problems. Holder can interpret relevant information and ideas. Holder is aware of a range of information that is relevant to the area of study or work.

AND/OR
Holder can select and use relevant cognitive and practical skills to complete well-defined, generally routine tasks and address straightforward problems. Holder can identify how effective actions have been. Holder can identify, gather and use relevant information to inform actions.' (You'd think maybe it was the other way around judging from the feedback I get from this site)
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Did you really say ‘forget about it’ in response to the question, or is that meant to be a joke? If you did say that, they will assume you would never follow up or chase up missing homework. The students would soon learn that they don’t have to do it and you would never get homework done after that. That was not a good answer and would make them think you are not serious about teaching.
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mark68
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(Original post by apandy)
Did you really say ‘forget about it’ in response to the question, or is that meant to be a joke? If you did say that, they will assume you would never follow up or chase up missing homework. The students would soon learn that they don’t have to do it and you would never get homework done after that. That was not a good answer and would make them think you are not serious about teaching.
No I really did say that But I did go on to clarify that if only 3 people from a class of 30 handed in their homework then you have much bigger problems than simply clarifying they understand the task and that what you're looking at as a teacher trying to solve something like that is soul destroying and an unfair uphill battle for anyone. In my opinion the question was wrong and not the answer (but I'm probably wrong about that ) If he had said you hand out homework to 30 children and 23 hand it in what do you do my answer would have been different.
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Sometimes it can be something as simple as not being clear about when a task is due. My answer would’ve been to ask the class what the issue was and see what they reply and then give them a new deadline. It depends on the school. If it’s a school with behaviour problems it might be common to get only a handful of students doing a homework, so you’d have to look at sanctions. If, however, it is unusual to have such a poor response rate it rather implies something is lacking with either the task or instructions.
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