VR45-Ministerial Report from the Equalities minister, RSE Guidance Watch

Poll: Should this ministerial report be implemented?
As many as are of the opinion, Aye (21)
44.68%
On the contrary, Nay (21)
44.68%
Abstain. (5)
10.64%
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Andrew97
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Amendments to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT), section 37 of the RSE guidance 2020



Ministerial report from the Minister of EqualitiesIn conjunction with the Department for Education, her majesty's government will be including further LGBT+ representation into Relationships Education, Health Education and Relationship and Sex Education (RSA) as follows...

Amendments to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT), section 37 of the RSE guidance
(a) Mentions of LGBT will be changed to LGBT+ to be inclusive of the entire community.
(b) "At the point at which schools consider it appropriate to teach their pupils about LGBT" to be amended to include LGBT education from the same age as education on heterosexual education.
(c) Transgender education to cover the wider topic of gender identity, and to educate on identities including non-binary, agender, and gender-fluid, alongside raising awareness of the existence of identities beyond this.
(d) Sex education to include sexual orientations outside of LGB, including, but not limited to, asexual, demisexual, and pansexual.
(e) Title of section 37 to be amended to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender and Queer (LGBT+)

Exemption
(a) Parents will continue to have the right to withdraw their child for some, or all, of sex education delivered by RSE, if they so wish.
(b) Those whose religious beliefs contradict same-sex marriage will not have to endorse same-sex marriage, but they will have to make pupils aware of LGBT relationships to the full extent of the new guidance.

These changes provide a greater awareness of LGBT+ identities, they allow our children to think more broadly about questions of identity and they help to prevent stigma around certain sexual orientations by generating open discussions about them. This government is proud to defend the rights of people who are LGBT+. I commend this statement to the house.
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Andrew97
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I totally didn't post this in the wrong place first time round.
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The Mogg
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Strong Nay, I wouldn't want to be in the situation of being taught what I believe is nonsense in the name of social justice and appeasing the sensitive. Teenagers of conservative beliefs (although they are relatively few) shouldn't be forced to be taught this. Just like religion is no longer shoved down teens' throats in most schools, this shouldn't either.
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Rakas21
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Nay.
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Glaz
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Strong Nay, I wouldn't want to be in the situation of being taught what I believe is nonsense in the name of social justice and appeasing the sensitive. Teenagers of conservative beliefs (although they are relatively few) shouldn't be forced to be taught this. Just like religion is no longer shoved down teens' throats in most schools, this shouldn't either.
It's not being shoved down anyone's throats, it's just as simple as saying during sex ed "a guy can also **** a guy and a girl can also **** a girl if they want to. Heterosexual relationships aren't the only types of relationships that exist." We're not handing around pamphlets saying "please please please have a homosexual relationship or we will cry". We're just saying that they exist and they shouldn't be frowned upon, but it's a free country so **** whoever you want, it's none of anyone's business who you want to be in a relationship with.

Also, and I quote: "(a) Parents will continue to have the right to withdraw their child for some, or all, of sex education delivered by RSE, if they so wish." Therefore if people like you want their children not to be taught about gay relationships and just to be taught and/or, to use your vernacular 'have shoved down their throats' heterosexual relationships then they can do that. But then again they will just have heterosexual relationships shoved down their throats which is just as bad as having homosexual relationships shoved down their throats, because no one should have anything shoved down their throats, don't you agree?
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Baron of Sealand
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Nay because my comment was ignored and thus my concerns were not addresse .
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Connor27
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Nay - smash cultural Marxism
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Andrew97
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I can see this being one of the more interesting division lobby threads..


That being said, just to get this out there (although nobody hasn’t transgressed this yet) posts attacking other users sexuality or how they identify etc won’t be tolerated
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04MR17
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Nay because my comment was ignored and thus my concerns were not addresse .
The point of teacher's training levels to be knowledgeable on the subject was addressed in response to Catus's suggestion for further training. I addressed it by saying that's a possibility we'll explore.

As for your counsellor suggestion, the role of a Counsellor within schools often isn't embedded and very little funding exists at present for counselling in schools. This solution is a much more streamlined, much broader framework than counselling on an individual basis which would involve a huge increase in government spending on education, disproportionate to the prominence of this topic as a funding requirement.
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04MR17
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I've voted aye since if we're going to have sex education in schools, it really shouldn't be quite so hetero-normative.

Furthermore I'd remind MPs that the MR says nothing of forcing any student to "follow" what is being presented to them. This is nothing to do with the Education Indoctrination debate (:bricks:). Students are invited to consider these, and that is all.
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shadowdweller
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Strong Nay, I wouldn't want to be in the situation of being taught what I believe is nonsense in the name of social justice and appeasing the sensitive. Teenagers of conservative beliefs (although they are relatively few) shouldn't be forced to be taught this. Just like religion is no longer shoved down teens' throats in most schools, this shouldn't either.
It's no more shoving down someone's throat than telling them about straight relationships is? Its It's important that people are educated on these matters, regardless of their overall views on the matter.

RE is still compulsory in all state funded schools, to address you latter point.
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The Mogg
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(Original post by shadowdweller)
It's no more shoving down someone's throat than telling them about straight relationships is? Its It's important that people are educated on these matters, regardless of their overall views on the matter.

RE is still compulsory in all state funded schools, to address you latter point.
I probably should have been much clearer, I was mainly referring to point (c), I've no problem with Lesbian/Gay relationships. School should be a place that equips young people with solid (useful) factual information, life skills, and get them ready for employment, it shouldn't be a place to push political agendas. Leave educating about relationships to the parents/guardians and keep the state out of it. Also, RE isn't compulsory in Wales (at least, I didn't do it past Year 8 anyway)

(Original post by Glaz)
It's not being shoved down anyone's throats, it's just as simple as saying during sex ed "a guy can also **** a guy and a girl can also **** a girl if they want to. Heterosexual relationships aren't the only types of relationships that exist." We're not handing around pamphlets saying "please please please have a homosexual relationship or we will cry". We're just saying that they exist and they shouldn't be frowned upon, but it's a free country so **** whoever you want, it's none of anyone's business who you want to be in a relationship with.

Also, and I quote: "(a) Parents will continue to have the right to withdraw their child for some, or all, of sex education delivered by RSE, if they so wish." Therefore if people like you want their children not to be taught about gay relationships and just to be taught and/or, to use your vernacular 'have shoved down their throats' heterosexual relationships then they can do that. But then again they will just have heterosexual relationships shoved down their throats which is just as bad as having homosexual relationships shoved down their throats, because no one should have anything shoved down their throats, don't you agree?
Please refer to the first sentence in my above statement.
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shadowdweller
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Please refer to the first sentence in my above statement.
For some reason it will only quote part of your post on the app. But anyway, point C is intended to be educational rather than political; these are all things that people widely identify as, and people should be aware of their existence even if they do not agree with them.

Sorry I feel like I've gotten confused here - if you did RE until year 8, surely it was forced down peoples throats (as you put it) until that point still?
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The Mogg
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(Original post by shadowdweller)
For some reason it will only quote part of your post on the app. But anyway, point C is intended to be educational rather than political; these are all things that people widely identify as, and people should be aware of their existence even if they do not agree with them.

Sorry I feel like I've gotten confused here - if you did RE until year 8, surely it was forced down peoples throats (as you put it) until that point still?
There is a difference, in RE we were told what THEY (they being the religion and its people) believe but it doesn't push it as truth, what this plans to do is tell me what you believe and give it to me as fact.
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by 04MR17)
The point of teacher's training levels to be knowledgeable on the subject was addressed in response to Catus's suggestion for further training. I addressed it by saying that's a possibility we'll explore.

As for your counsellor suggestion, the role of a Counsellor within schools often isn't embedded and very little funding exists at present for counselling in schools. This solution is a much more streamlined, much broader framework than counselling on an individual basis which would involve a huge increase in government spending on education, disproportionate to the prominence of this topic as a funding requirement.
My main question was on what exactly would teachers be expected to teach. Leaving it to the counsellor was not so much a suggestion but that from the report I couldn't tell what exactly is being taught.
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Saracen's Fez
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Also, RE isn't compulsory in Wales (at least, I didn't do it past Year 8 anyway)
Pretty sure it is into KS4. Also with education being devolved this doesn't apply to Wales, where RSE has recently been reformed separately.
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04MR17
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
My main question was on what exactly would teachers be expected to teach. Leaving it to the counsellor was not so much a suggestion but that from the report I couldn't tell what exactly is being taught.
Instead of "People have different sexualities, here are some. Some people identify as homosexual [insert definition], many as heterosexual [insert definition] and some as bisexual [insert definition] ."

It's now:

"People have different sexualities, here are some. Some people identify as homosexual [insert definition], many as heterosexual [insert definition] and some as bisexual [insert definition]. There are other sexual oeientations too, such as Asexual [insert definition], demisexual [insert definition] and pansexual [insert definition]."

Added is:

"Different people choose to identify their genders in different ways. Let's have a think about how some things get associated with boys, and some with girls. And how that's something that we as other people can sometimes make assumptions about based on what we see as normal. Some people go against these norms by not being in a boy or girl category but by being gender fluid, non binary or agender. Some people also choose to change their gender identity during their lives, as they perhaps don't see themselves as a male (for instance) and instead choose to take a new identity as something else, perhaps female, perhaps non binary. Regardless of their identification it is important to treat everyone with respect and not demeaning somebody for who they identify as. "
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04MR17
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(Original post by The Mogg)
There is a difference, in RE we were told what THEY (they being the religion and its people) believe but it doesn't push it as truth, what this plans to do is tell me what you believe and give it to me as fact.
Where in the MR does it say this because this is the first I have heard of such a thing after reading it through many times.
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The Mogg
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Where in the MR does it say this because this is the first I have heard of such a thing after reading it through many times.
Using the main point I disagree with, "Transgender education to cover the wider topic of gender identity, and to educate on identities including non-binary, agender, and gender-fluid, alongside raising awareness of the existence of identities beyond this." We tend to raise awareness about real things and issues, for example homelessness. I fail to recall a time where we raised awareness for things that aren't real. The wording of it implies that the existence of these identities is fact, at least to me anyway.

(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
Pretty sure it is into KS4. Also with education being devolved this doesn't apply to Wales, where RSE has recently been reformed separately.
Just saying my experience, I never did RE in KS4. Well suppose it not applying to Wales is alright then, but it won't prevent me from having an opinion on it anyway.


I won't be responding from here on out (at least for tonight anyway) because a) I'm knackered, and b) this could go on forever and my opinion wouldn't differ at all from the beginning.
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04MR17
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Using the main point I disagree with, "Transgender education to cover the wider topic of gender identity, and to educate on identities including non-binary, agender, and gender-fluid, alongside raising awareness of the existence of identities beyond this." We tend to raise awareness about real things and issues, for example homelessness. I fail to recall a time where we raised awareness for things that aren't real. The wording of it implies that the existence of these identities is fact, at least to me anyway.
So you're saying that because the wording in the MR implies something for you, means that must be what the MR is saying?

Isn't this the same logic that you're arguing against? That just because one thing is believed by someone doesn't mean it should be stated as fact?


Can I ask what definition of the word identity are you using here? You claim that particular identities cannot exist, but having done some research on identity and modernity I'm struggling to identify which definition you're using.
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