Is Boris preparing to suspend British democracy? Watch

Burton Bridge
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#21
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#21
(Original post by ByEeek)
If you want to live in a dictatorship, feel free to go and live in Saudi or Russia. Dictatorships are great as long as you either agree with or suck up to the dictator.

Boris suspending our democratically elected parliament is a very sad day for our democracy especially as many of those who voted to leave did so to be free of ehat the perveived to be a lack of democratic democracy from Europe.

That said, seeking legal advice is not the same as doing at this point.
Noone is wishing to live in a dictatorship like Saudi or Russia, you are again moving to extremities that don't exist.

Do you have a issue with people standing on manifestos promising a certain thing and then acting a completely different way?

Do you have a problem with elitism, the act somebody superior knowing what's better for you and you cannot do anything about it?

If so why are you seemingly OK with parliamentarians denying to act upon instructions they asked for from the electorate and those who was happy to stand on Brexit manifestos, because they know on remain ones they would not get elected.
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SteveyStack
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It wasn't the result of a splendid democratic process. It was completely manipulated by a narrow slice of billionaire global finance capital interests and implemented by internal traitors like the Tory Right and the current PM, who lied and lied about our true interests.
There is a very strong argument that we have been lied to from the very moment we joined the EU.

Put simply if we had ever been told what the EU would be like Britain would never have joined.

The biggest lie in political history was that Europe would only have free trade. Do you simply turn the other cheek in the hope of progress?

I want to be in control of what we do and I don’t want to become a citizen of a European sham democracy.

For me Brexit is about the freedom to choose and democratically remove someone I don’t like. That option does not exist in the EU and if the EU does not want to change then it is time to leave.
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Fullofsurprises
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#23
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#23
(Original post by SteveyStack)
There is a very strong argument that we have been lied to from the very moment we joined the EU.

Put simply if we had ever been told what the EU would be like Britain would never have joined.

The biggest lie in political history was that Europe would only have free trade. Do you simply turn the other cheek in the hope of progress?

I want to be in control of what we do and I don’t want to become a citizen of a European sham democracy.

For me Brexit is about the freedom to choose and democratically remove someone I don’t like. That option does not exist in the EU and if the EU does not want to change then it is time to leave.
There's some truth that British leaders at the time did not tell the whole truth to the public about the plans for the Common Market, but a lot of the stuff that really annoys people, like expansion into E. Europe and free movement of their people did not arise until long after we'd joined. The 'ever-closer union' thing was always around but it's only in the last 25 years that it became much more than a slogan. We agreed to that at Maastrict and Lisbon. Those were democratic decisions approved by our political leaders. There should though have been a referendum at that point, I agree with that view.
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username4540078
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#24
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#24
Brexiters in 2016: We need to return sovereignty to Parliament.

Brexiters in 2019: We need to bypass the sovereignty of Parliament so we can drive the UK off the Brexit cliff edge.
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Alt Tankie
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I agree Boris Johnson is unelected but he’s a thousand times more elected than the Eu commission
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SteveyStack
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
There's some truth that British leaders at the time did not tell the whole truth to the public about the plans for the Common Market, but a lot of the stuff that really annoys people, like expansion into E. Europe and free movement of their people did not arise until long after we'd joined. The 'ever-closer union' thing was always around but it's only in the last 25 years that it became much more than a slogan. We agreed to that at Maastrict and Lisbon. Those were democratic decisions approved by our political leaders. There should though have been a referendum at that point, I agree with that view.
Yes and I think (but may be wrong) that Blair even promised one in the election. This was then ignored.

There are plenty of hypocrisies on both sides of the argument, I enjoy picking them out most 😂
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Rakas21
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#27
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
A leaked memo indicates that Boris has been seeking legal advice on suspending Parliament from 9 Sept for 5 weeks, to get through Brexit by executive Privy Council powers.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...iament-closure

Not since the English Civil War has something like this been done.

If this happens, there will literally be no point in voting going forwards. An unelected Prime Minister chosen by a narrow cabal of activist right wing Torys and former UKIP members will be taking arrogant state decisions invoking the monarch and suppressing any debate.

If Boris does do this, the people will and must take to the streets.
I don't believe this is credible much like other notions such as setting the election date on or beyond the 31st. These are ideas which are primarily brought up party via remoaner fear and partly to appease the hard skeptics who he needs until has a decent majority.

His real plan is not hard to fathom when you follow his actions. It is simply to wait until he is attacked (via a MoNC or parliament amending the order paper to pass another extention) and then have an election in which he is able to claim that his opponents in parliament are the enemies of the people (a rallying cry to Brx Party supporters that he needs). Faced with the Lib Dem's outright backing revoke (Corbyn will have a vague neverendum in circumstances policy) and the Tories saying exactly what Farage wants to hear, the potential for a relative swing to the Tories is fairly significant (Lib Dem's take 10%, Brx Takes 5%, Con-Lab gap grows 5% and all marginals fall to Boris).

There are really only 3.5 threats to Brexit and timing also plays its part.

1) The MoNC - Boris has an effective majority of 6-12 when you play around based on the Jan Monc. The number of likely Tory betrayals is 6-13 based on Brexit votes.

This is slightly messy because if he loses he gets to play his card but Corbyn could be portrayed as a cheerleader to the anti-Tories/Leave. Equally if Boris survives, Corbyn looks utterly stupid and the Liberals/CUK will see him as flaccid and potentially attack Labour.

This is likely to happen quickly before the conference recess so the 3rd-13th September.

2) Speaker/Statute - The Speaker will allow Cooper-Letwin to try force another extention. This is more likely to pass than the Monc because CUK and Tories are more comfortable with it.

Current rumours are that this attempt will occur on Monday September 9th (suggesting they have wrote off the MoNC being successful) which Downing Street may play to if successful. There are rumors that if it were to pass Boris would immediately call an election setting the date to coincide with the EU summit on the 17th-18th (this is slightly messy again because polls would close at 10pm on the 18th so he would have to (on the basis of the exit poll) be very confident of a majority and immediately get on a plane and demand the backstop gone with his new mandate and parliament onside (the EU may have to extend the summit a day i suspect).

The caveat here is that timing is important. This is constitutionally likely to be the one chance they get to force the situation. By going early they prevent Boris having a post-Brexit election date but they also reduce the pressure on Tory remainers to vote for something 7 weeks out rather than trying it when negotiations have clearly failed so far in October.

3) Revoke - As is says on the tin a bill to repeal article 50 will come before parliament if the other options have failed, likely on the 31st for maximum pressure on MP's.

This attempt i am confident in saying will fail given that Lab and Tory remainers would actually have to put their fingerprints on the murder weapon and give Boris a massive gift for the ensuing election that would occur. With most MP's valuing their careers, there is little to no chance that parliament has that hard a spine.

..

Despite being a betting man things are too uncertain for me to put money on an outcome (though exciting) however as per my comments above i suspect that a MoNC will fall short (i put the odds at about 60% against) as would revoke.

Do i think that Boris can ride out the situation though. Probably not. Therefore i suspect that the attempt to try force an extension will succeed and that we go to the polls in a general election on the 24th October (i don't think Boris needs to actually use the summit and the closer to the date, the more he can play to the Brexit Party and the more the Liberals will cut into Labour.

That right now is where my money would be if i was more confident in the situation.
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Burton Bridge
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#28
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
There's some truth that British leaders at the time did not tell the whole truth to the public about the plans for the Common Market, but a lot of the stuff that really annoys people, like expansion into E. Europe and free movement of their people did not arise until long after we'd joined. The 'ever-closer union' thing was always around but it's only in the last 25 years that it became much more than a slogan. We agreed to that at Maastrict and Lisbon. Those were democratic decisions approved by our political leaders. There should though have been a referendum at that point, I agree with that view.
They'd never passed mate.

I have a friendly tenner on as a leaving on the 31st of October between me and my friend now, these bets on I have a history of losing.

To me I can't see myself losing, i just don't see how the remainers are going to stop it? I know the EU are being exceptionally disingenuous in saying that this is our last extension and we won't be granted another one and all that rubbish, because let's be honest the EU are completely and totally disingenuous that's one of the reasons why we better off away from these people. So I think the cards reside with the British parliamentarians because the EU are just desperate to keep as in.

Realistically how are they going to do it? mogg is the leader of the house, there isn't enough time for another General Election before the 31st of October, the law is in place for us to leave and if the British PM won't ask for an extension - the Queen won't ask for an extension she will never go against the people.

Time will tell will be interesting
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Napp
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Alt Tankie)
I agree Boris Johnson is unelected but he’s a thousand times more elected than the Eu commission
How did you come to that dubious conclusion?
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Rakas21
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#30
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
They'd never passed mate.

I have a friendly tenner on as a leaving on the 31st of October between me and my friend now, these bets on I have a history of losing.

To me I can't see myself losing, i just don't see how the remainers are going to stop it? I know the EU are being exceptionally disingenuous in saying that this is our last extension and we won't be granted another one and all that rubbish, because let's be honest the EU are completely and totally disingenuous that's one of the reasons why we better off away from these people. So I think the cards reside with the British parliamentarians because the EU are just desperate to keep as in.

Realistically how are they going to do it? mogg is the leader of the house, there isn't enough time for another General Election before the 31st of October, the law is in place for us to leave and if the British PM won't ask for an extension - the Queen won't ask for an extension she will never go against the people.

Time will tell will be interesting
Legally speaking there is time for a general election.

Parliament rises on Friday 13th again so if one is called between 3rd-13th only 5 weeks, 4 days is required from the motion passing.
Last edited by Rakas21; 3 weeks ago
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ChaoticButterfly
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#31
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(Original post by Rakas21)
His real plan is not hard to fathom when you follow his actions. It is simply to wait until he is attacked (via a MoNC or parliament amending the order paper to pass another extention) and then have an election in which he is able to claim that his opponents in parliament are the enemies of the people (a rallying cry to Brx Party supporters that he needs).


This
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Fullofsurprises
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Rakas21)
That right now is where my money would be if i was more confident in the situation.
It's possible that waving the flag of prorogement is a sort of easing of the path to slightly less drastic measures which will then seem acceptable - just the sort of thing that Mr Cummings would come up with.

Yes, it's clear that Boris has always been seeking an early election since he took office and so that remains the overarching plan. Corbyn remains a gift to the Tories and the Tory lead in the polls has been pretty consistent. The LibDems would take some more seats back in SW Britain, but Lab will lose more to the Tories in the Midlands and North. Lab may get back a few more in Strathclyde from the SNP, whose existence looks increasingly meaningless.

I don't think a no confidence motion would succeed but I do think a further extension will happen almost regardless of the political games of the next 6 weeks.
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Rakas21
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#33
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It's possible that waving the flag of prorogement is a sort of easing of the path to slightly less drastic measures which will then seem acceptable - just the sort of thing that Mr Cummings would come up with.

Yes, it's clear that Boris has always been seeking an early election since he took office and so that remains the overarching plan. Corbyn remains a gift to the Tories and the Tory lead in the polls has been pretty consistent. The LibDems would take some more seats back in SW Britain, but Lab will lose more to the Tories in the Midlands and North. Lab may get back a few more in Strathclyde from the SNP, whose existence looks increasingly meaningless.

I don't think a no confidence motion would succeed but I do think a further extension will happen almost regardless of the political games of the next 6 weeks.
Interestingly the Lib Dem’s are only looking at 4 south west seats, their gains are fairly well spread geographically. I’m much more confident that Labour will actually lose Scottish seats since it’s highly unlikely they’ll lose vote share in England but not lose it in Scotland (6 of the 7 seats are very marginal), Wales also looks very interesting, Labour could fairly easily find themselves wiped out north of the Valleys.

I think the election would be called near immediately if a bill to try force an extension passed. The ammunition would be sufficient for him. The 24th being the most likely date.
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ByEeek
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#34
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Parliament is clearly defying the wish of the people and have entered the realm of treason in my opinion.
Perhaps parliament is representing the views of ALL 70 million Britons rather than just the 17 million who voted to leave? Even those who voted to leave it is clear they did so with a wide variety of outcomes in mind, not just one.

Democracy has always been a compromise. Doing away with parliament to appease those who feel they were victorious in a vote that was flawed by misinformation and propoganda on all sides is as anti- democratic as it gets.

But that said, I fear this is soon to become less about Europe and more about Ireland. It feels like the troubles may soon be on us again if we keep going as we are.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Legally speaking there is time for a general election.

Parliament rises on Friday 13th again so if one is called between 3rd-13th only 5 weeks, 4 days is required from the motion passing.
Really, I thought it was 6 weeks, which is 25th-31st October if the motion is pushed along at lightning speed, for our parliament anyway!

I just don't see it mate, even if they did how is a general election going to change, it's just simply too tight - no?
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Alt Tankie
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(Original post by Napp)
How did you come to that dubious conclusion?
Boris Johnson was elected by iirc a hundred thousand Tory members

how many people voted for the Eu commission or even know their name?

If you (wrongly) believe the Eu parliament has some sort of say, who in the U.K. voted for the EPP the largest and dominant European political party which no U.K. MEPs are Part of
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Perhaps parliament is representing the views of ALL 70 million Britons rather than just the 17 million who voted to leave? Even those who voted to leave it is clear they did so with a wide variety of outcomes in mind, not just one.

Democracy has always been a compromise. Doing away with parliament to appease those who feel they were victorious in a vote that was flawed by misinformation and propoganda on all sides is as anti- democratic as it gets.

But that said, I fear this is soon to become less about Europe and more about Ireland. It feels like the troubles may soon be on us again if we keep going as we are.
The troubles wont be upon us and any terrorist who tries to start another conflict will be crushed.

It is interesting that you are talking about compromise since MPs are trying to derail Brexit. I wonder what would have happened, if it was a Remain vote and MPs were trying to force Brexit. People would have gone crazy.

The fundamental issue with Parliament is that we have some people who lied and stood on manifestos that they did not believe in and those who promised to deliver Brexit and quickly changed their minds once they got elected. Look at folks like Anna Soubry, Chuka Umunna, Dominic Grieve, David Gauke etc. They know that they would be obliterated and that is why they are scared of an election.

Finally, Parliament is not representing the views of 70
million people but of the 15 or so million who voted to remain. 70 million people did not vote, so we cannot assume what their position on Brexit would be.
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barnetlad
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The leak may have been to try to force Parliament to make a decision so the option of suspending Parliament is not there.

As for knowing the Commission and other EU officials, Junker and Tusk are reasonably known in the UK now. The new President of the Council from December seemed a pleasant man when I met him last month.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
The troubles wont be upon us and any terrorist who tries to start another conflict will be crushed.

It is interesting that you are talking about compromise since MPs are trying to derail Brexit. I wonder what would have happened, if it was a Remain vote and MPs were trying to force Brexit. People would have gone crazy.

The fundamental issue with Parliament is that we have some people who lied and stood on manifestos that they did not believe in and those who promised to deliver Brexit and quickly changed their minds once they got elected. Look at folks like Anna Soubry, Chuka Umunna, Dominic Grieve, David Gauke etc. They know that they would be obliterated and that is why they are scared of an election.

Finally, Parliament is not representing the views of 70
million people but of the 15 or so million who voted to remain. 70 million people did not vote, so we cannot assume what their position on Brexit would be.
Some interesting points. Parliament is stuck between a rock and a hard place. No one wants a hard brexit because it will be horrendous. No one voted for total meltdown surely? There is a good deal on the table. I support Mays deal but it is unpalatable because if Ireland.

Whatever happens will come back to Ireland. The EU will not tolerate an open border. So Ireland has a choice to close the border or put the border on Irish ports. But then that contravenes free movement.

And amidst this we have the paramilitaries who despite our best efforts wete never crushed. And nor has terrorism. Despite your tough talk, IS and Al Quida and te IRA and the UVF and all the others are still very much alive and kicking.
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Grizwuld
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Sorry if this seems a bit dim...

As a Brexiteer why does Boris have to do anything? Isn't the bottom line: the UK will automatically cease to be a member of the EU on the 31st October 2019 in accordance with pre-existing treaty provisions and law... unless the UK signs the existing deal approved by the EU.

What does it matter what Boris or anyone else wants/desires/ or dreams of?
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