"Humans destroyed the planet". Really? No. Watch

AngeryPenguin
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Western media often portrays the climate catastrophe as a "human-made" event - as in, all humans are equally responsible for it.

Sharing the blame is easy to do. But is that justifiable?

Europeans were the ones who began industrialisation, and set the ball rolling on the disasters it has caused. That is beyond dispute.

Europeans spread industrialisation through massive and brutal colonisation and empire-building. Formerly tribal societies - with no carbon footprint - were violently yanked out of their traditional ways of life, and forced into modern carbon-churning systems mirroring Europe's. The fossil fuels from the conquered tribes' lands were extracted by Europeans at gunpoint, and burnt in the hellfires of Europe's mills and factories.

The native tribes across the world were largely in tune with nature, in a fragile equilibrium with their environments. Europeans introduced the concepts of mass production and reductionist scientific thinking, and the very concept of being in tune with nature was suddenly thrown out of the window worldwide.

Is this really a "man-made" catastrophe? Or is it a Europe-made catastrophe?

https://twitter.com/queersocialism/s...79287951233025
Last edited by AngeryPenguin; 4 weeks ago
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Onde
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One possible cause of the so-called Little Ice Age is that Native Americans removed substantial amounts of forest in North America.

edit: actually, the theory is apparently that the forests that the Native Americans diminished grew back after Europeans started killing Native Americans, being a cause of the end of the Little Ice Age.
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Andrew97
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No. The planet has not been destroyed.
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AngryRedhead
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It was started by Europeans, that much is undeniable, in their quest to advance. But Europe cannot be held to blame for other countries outside of Europe continuing the trend of industrialisation
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gretelhouseg
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(Original post by AngryRedhead)
It was started by Europeans, that much is undeniable, in their quest to advance. But Europe cannot be held to blame for other countries outside of Europe continuing the trend of industrialisation
considering that 1) industrial mass production is central to european/western economic models 2) their economic models/behaviours have hegemony over global economics generally, can we really be surprised “other countries” (specifically the global south) have to assimilate?? the duress non-western countries would face if they wanted to deviate from industrial capitalism would make their own economic models unviable, as the most powerful countries wouldn’t particularly accommodate their new unconforming system - just look at the trade embargoes america places on cuba, for example. coercing another country to adopt the same industrial practices might be something that’s achievable when u have the leverage to impose detrimental economic sanctions.

also many western companies outsource industrial production to countries like indonesia and china so they still have a really large influence in implementing industrialisation abroad

edit; also props to OP for this thread!! very interesting discussion to be had
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JanusGodofDoors
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Interesting thought, and European societies have definitely disproportionately contributed to climate change. Given that most of them (Western European nations anyway) are amongst the largest economies on earth, it also makes sense that they should contribute more to repairing the damage. But if we are to tackle the climate crisis, we need all countries to contribute. Also, and I’m saying this as a question more than as a statement, would major developed societies such as China have ultimately pursued a path of pollution and rampant industrial growth even without European interference? Your opinion on this probably depends on your answer to the philosophical question - are we responsible for what is unavoidable, which in this case is the question of whether Europe is responsible for climate change if colonised countries would have simply developed and become polluters themselves. Would tribal societies have just stayed like that forever, or would they have taken the chance to become powerful blocs in their own right, if European colonialism hadn’t happened?
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gretelhouseg
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(Original post by Onde)
One possible cause of the so-called Little Ice Age is that Native Americans removed substantial amounts of forest in North America.

edit: actually, the theory is apparently that the forests that the Native Americans diminished grew back after Europeans started killing Native Americans, being a cause of the end of the Little Ice Age.
regardless of the reforestation, UCL research found that European colonisers ended up killing so many Native Americans that the climate changed: https://edition-m.cnn.com/2019/02/01...kduckgo.com%2F
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The Mogg
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The planet seems pretty non-destroyed to me, if it is destroyed, please tell me how we're here right now.
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999tigger
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(Original post by AngeryPenguin)
Western media often portrays the climate catastrophe as a "human-made" event - as in, all humans are equally responsible for it.

Sharing the blame is easy to do. But is that justifiable?

Europeans were the ones who began industrialisation, and set the ball rolling on the disasters it has caused. That is beyond dispute.

Europeans spread industrialisation through massive and brutal colonisation and empire-building. Formerly tribal societies - with no carbon footprint - were violently yanked out of their traditional ways of life, and forced into modern carbon-churning systems mirroring Europe's. The fossil fuels from the conquered tribes' lands were extracted by Europeans at gunpoint, and burnt in the hellfires of Europe's mills and factories.

Is this really a "man-made" catastrophe? Or is it a Europe-made catastrophe?

https://twitter.com/queersocialism/s...79287951233025
So true. China doesnt have any industry and is having no effect whatsoever on the environment.

Btw where is todays thread attacking Hong Kong? You need to keep up with your target for the day.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Andrew97)
No. The planet has not been destroyed.
Not yet, more likely it will just be mankind and I believe that includes Chinese communists as well.
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AngeryPenguin
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(Original post by 999tigger)
So true. China doesnt have any industry and is having no effect whatsoever on the environment.

Btw where is todays thread attacking Hong Kong? You need to keep up with your target for the day.
Western companies producing goods for Western consumers. You can't really blame China for that.

Yes, there have been more petrol bombs and bricks thrown by "protesters" in HK. But this happens every single day - it would take an entire army to document each atrocity they commit.
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Anonymous5483902
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It was not Europeans that were the first to build civilisations. In fact there may have been civilisations that we still do not know about who could have been doing what we are doing right now. You can't claim Europe has destroyed the world when it's not been destroyed yet has it?
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Bang Outta Order
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(Original post by Onde)
One possible cause of the so-called Little Ice Age is that Native Americans removed substantial amounts of forest in North America.

edit: actually, the theory is apparently that the forests that the Native Americans diminished grew back after Europeans started killing Native Americans, being a cause of the end of the Little Ice Age.
What a disgusting statement.

"The world became a better place because people were killed, especially on their own land." Do you hear yourself??
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999tigger
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(Original post by AngeryPenguin)
Western companies producing goods for Western consumers. You can't really blame China for that.

Yes, there have been more petrol bombs and bricks thrown by "protesters" in HK. But this happens every single day - it would take an entire army to document each atrocity they commit.
Yes as you say it is all the wests fault and China is 100% innocent. They do not consume anything or benefit from trade at all. You sre so right.

Ohhh those nasty protesters wanting their civil rights, down with democracy up with communism. Surely its time for the tanks to run them over again.
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999tigger
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(Original post by The Mogg)
The planet seems pretty non-destroyed to me, if it is destroyed, please tell me how we're here right now.
It wontg be just humans will get wiped out that is all. I suppose lots of land animals as well.
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999tigger
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(Original post by AngeryPenguin)
Western companies producing goods for Western consumers. You can't really blame China for that.

Yes, there have been more petrol bombs and bricks thrown by "protesters" in HK. But this happens every single day - it would take an entire army to document each atrocity they commit.
TSR has you to rely on to tell us about the horrid portestors every day. Down with democracy , up with communism, down with civil rights.
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the bear
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The Great Earth Mother is displeased with our selfish greedy species. She will deal with us appropriately.
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Raffacak3s
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I would like to say, we are incapable of destroying the planet, the planet simply changes it's climate, what can grow will grow. We are only destroying ourselves,
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adam277
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Climate change will always happen. It's the natural Life cycle of the earth.
The worst humans can do is speed it up.

To say we are killing the planet is delusional.
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AngryRedhead
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(Original post by gretelhouseg)
considering that 1) industrial mass production is central to european/western economic models 2) their economic models/behaviours have hegemony over global economics generally, can we really be surprised “other countries” (specifically the global south) have to assimilate?? the duress non-western countries would face if they wanted to deviate from industrial capitalism would make their own economic models unviable, as the most powerful countries wouldn’t particularly accommodate their new unconforming system - just look at the trade embargoes america places on cuba, for example. coercing another country to adopt the same industrial practices might be something that’s achievable when u have the leverage to impose detrimental economic sanctions.

also many western companies outsource industrial production to countries like indonesia and china so they still have a really large influence in implementing industrialisation abroad

edit; also props to OP for this thread!! very interesting discussion to be had
We aren’t talking about the USA here though, we’re talking about Europe. Obviously American industrialisation was influenced by Europe where it began but as far as I’m aware the EU does not put embargoes on member countries for not be industrialised enough.

Other economic models, eg; communism, have been extensively practiced by non EU nations and have been found to be sorely lacking, oftentimes resulting in a poor quality of life amongst its citizens. I don’t know of any country today that overall practices a tribal lifestyle, except maybe Mongolia to a degree and obvious tribes in Africa
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