The men who feel left out of US abortion debate Watch

username4889668
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#21
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Another issue is that people don't agree on when the unborn child becomes a human life. The woman wouldn't be murdering a baby cause for most people, it isn't a real life yet.
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DerivativeName
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#22
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Ah right, just wanted to clarify.

Whether a woman has/can have an abortion and whether a child is to be held financially/legally responsible for said child are two separate issues. The former involves bodily autonomy while the latter involves financial/legal autonomy (for lack of a better word). We tend to hold those two things as separate and not 'equal', morally/ethically speaking.
Ofc those are different, but I think there are more factors than that. Ie the 'emotional obligation' I talked about in response to someone else. Even if you're not legally or financially responsible as a man, you can still feel emotionally responsible. And then it's a question of whose rights are more important- for example a woman who wanted to be pregnant and forced a man to impregnate her, or a man who would feel responsible for a child even if he didn't want it.

(Also, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but just be aware using plural personal pronouns like 'we' can come off as patronising)
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JohanGRK
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(Original post by DerivativeName)
How do you remove obligation of emotional support though? Sure there will be proper who are fine never seeing their kid, but if I was forced to have a kid I would feel a duty to support the kid and help bring it up. Which would ruin my life. How do we remove that obligation?

I would want an abortion. Is my life less important than the woman who manipulated or raped me?
There are several ways in which one could respond to this:

1. They could claim that your argument is irrational and therefore not worth accounting for when our hypothetical new regulation is drawn up. You'd like to abort the kid, but would also make considerable financial sacrifices for it (and, by extension, for its mother, who may be relieved of having to make this expenditure in your place) if it was born? Where is this emotional obligation coming from? Why aren't we, as lawmakers, prioritising and encouraging rational, down-to-earth thoughts?

2. They could claim that you've faced no actual threat to your interests - the choice to contribute to the child's upbringing is yours, and is too remote from the act of rape/deception. If you hadn't chosen to contribute to the child's upbringing, you wouldn't have lost anything. So what you think is irrelevant - you can distance yourself from the whole debacle if you like.

3. They could balance your interests against that of the mother - her personal autonomy to choose to give birth to a child (and the child's future autonomy) outweighs your insistence that it be aborted. Even if point (2) is false and the birth of the child ends up costing you real money, one would argue that the right over one's body and the future child's life is more important that financial losses that are self-incurred.

I think that you're underestimating the importance of a policy that gives a father a right to talk to or 'influence' the mother but without having a veto. That's better than nothing, and it does, at the very least, allow for the creation of clear expectations as to how each individual should treat/care for the baby once it is born (I'm assuming that the mother is vehement that she wants to carry it and is incapable of persuasion)
Last edited by JohanGRK; 2 weeks ago
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Miriam29
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#24
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(Original post by JWatch)
I think that as long as it doesn't get violent or threatening, men should be allowed a say. That includes protesting outside abortion clinics provided of course they don't physically obstruct. Many people including me feel that life begins at conception and that whatever valid reasons a woman may feel she has for abortion, it still kills an innocent person and we should be allowed to express those views not just in private but also in public.
Of course everyone should be ALLOWED to express their opinion on the issue. While I personally find protesting outside abortion clinics distasteful considering that healthcare is a private matter between a doctor and a patient and it can have a lot of mental impact on the pregnant females, you do have a right to do so. When I talk about “having a say”, I mean having practical input in the decision, not just engaging in conversation.
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Miriam29
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(Original post by DerivativeName)
How do you remove obligation of emotional support though? Sure there will be proper who are fine never seeing their kid, but if I was forced to have a kid I would feel a duty to support the kid and help bring it up. Which would ruin my life. How do we remove that obligation?

I would want an abortion. Is my life less important than the woman who manipulated or raped me?
Despite how horrific it would be if a woman raped you, a crime in a civilised society is not punishable by cruel and unusual punishment. This would include giving up the right to decide what happens with your own body, ergo medical procedures such as abortions. It would be unfair, therefore, to force a woman to have an abortion because a man says she should, even in the case of woman-on-man rape. It’s not a question of whose rights are more important, but a question of whether everyone should have the right to bodily autonomy.
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SHallowvale
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#26
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(Original post by DerivativeName)
Ofc those are different, but I think there are more factors than that. Ie the 'emotional obligation' I talked about in response to someone else. Even if you're not legally or financially responsible as a man, you can still feel emotionally responsible. And then it's a question of whose rights are more important- for example a woman who wanted to be pregnant and forced a man to impregnate her, or a man who would feel responsible for a child even if he didn't want it.

(Also, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but just be aware using plural personal pronouns like 'we' can come off as patronising)
I don't believe that emotional responsibility should trump bodily autonomy. You're essentially saying that a woman's consent to pregnancy doesn't matter; after all, her choice is irrelevant if a man gets a veto on it. If this is the case then why not also give men the right to say decide whether women get pregnant to begin with? After all, if her consent to pregnancy doesn't matter at the point of conception then why should it matter before conception?

(Nah, I didn't mean it in that way! :P By 'we' I was referring to society in general and how the law/financial system works.)
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Soviet-EUnion
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28 million + have been aborted this year so far according to worldometers.info


Its wrong to say men should have no say in anything as its their child too.
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DerivativeName
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#28
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#28
(Original post by SHallowvale)
I don't believe that emotional responsibility should trump bodily autonomy. You're essentially saying that a woman's consent to pregnancy doesn't matter; after all, her choice is irrelevant if a man gets a veto on it. If this is the case then why not also give men the right to say decide whether women get pregnant to begin with? After all, if her consent to pregnancy doesn't matter at the point of conception then why should it matter before conception?

(Nah, I didn't mean it in that way! :P By 'we' I was referring to society in general and how the law/financial system works.)
(Original post by Miriam29)
Despite how horrific it would be if a woman raped you, a crime in a civilised society is not punishable by cruel and unusual punishment. This would include giving up the right to decide what happens with your own body, ergo medical procedures such as abortions. It would be unfair, therefore, to force a woman to have an abortion because a man says she should, even in the case of woman-on-man rape. It’s not a question of whose rights are more important, but a question of whether everyone should have the right to bodily autonomy.
(Original post by JohanGRK)
There are several ways in which one could respond to this:

1. They could claim that your argument is irrational and therefore not worth accounting for when our hypothetical new regulation is drawn up. You'd like to abort the kid, but would also make considerable financial sacrifices for it (and, by extension, for its mother, who may be relieved of having to make this expenditure in your place) if it was born? Where is this emotional obligation coming from? Why aren't we, as lawmakers, prioritising and encouraging rational, down-to-earth thoughts?

2. They could claim that you've faced no actual threat to your interests - the choice to contribute to the child's upbringing is yours, and is too remote from the act of rape/deception. If you hadn't chosen to contribute to the child's upbringing, you wouldn't have lost anything. So what you think is irrelevant - you can distance yourself from the whole debacle if you like.

3. They could balance your interests against that of the mother - her personal autonomy to choose to give birth to a child (and the child's future autonomy) outweighs your insistence that it be aborted. Even if point (2) is false and the birth of the child ends up costing you real money, one would argue that the right over one's body and the future child's life is more important that financial losses that are self-incurred.

I think that you're underestimating the importance of a policy that gives a father a right to talk to or 'influence' the mother but without having a veto. That's better than nothing, and it does, at the very least, allow for the creation of clear expectations as to how each individual should treat/care for the baby once it is born (I'm assuming that the mother is vehement that she wants to carry it and is incapable of persuasion)
I definitely agree with you all- I was playing devils advocate a bit again (especially in my wording).

I agree that the right to bodily autonomy should be absolutely fundamental (although it would be interesting to hear some of your views on WHY this is the case)- and the issue with any legislation to allow men to force an abortion would have to violate this.

Another interesting point is that we do ignore the bodily autonomy of the mother when we as a society deem the abortion to be cruel, or without valid reason. Is that fair?

Mainly I brought it up because I think hetrosexual rape against men is often forgotten about (especially as it's not recognised by UK law, which is abhorrent imo), and is important in this issue. Personally, I'd propose a similar system to the way we deal with other emotional traumas- financial compensation. It's not perfect, but when dealing with abortion things never are.

Also this situation has another interesting caveat that I hadn't thought about. So if the mother raped the father, the mother would (and should) be incarcerated. So what happens to the child? I think forcing the father to bring it up is unfair, but I also think most father's would choose to anyway. If they choose to do you think the mother should be solely financially responsible? Should the farther be compensated by the state, as he is preventing it from going into care? But then isn't that just doing a parents job?

Another interesting question- if the mother at 22 weeks decides she doesn't want to keep it, and the father doesn't want it either: should she be allowed to abort it? If she has it then it will end up in care, which is likely going to be a bad life. If she is allowed, what about another mother not in this situation who knows her child will have a bad life?

They are just some interesting points I'll be doing some thinking about. The issue with abortion is that it's easy to idealise and forget there are so many people with different interests involved, and at the end of the day we have to choose what we think is most important
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Miriam29
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#29
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#29
(Original post by DerivativeName)
I definitely agree with you all- I was playing devils advocate a bit again (especially in my wording).

I agree that the right to bodily autonomy should be absolutely fundamental (although it would be interesting to hear some of your views on WHY this is the case)- and the issue with any legislation to allow men to force an abortion would have to violate this.

Another interesting point is that we do ignore the bodily autonomy of the mother when we as a society deem the abortion to be cruel, or without valid reason. Is that fair?

Mainly I brought it up because I think hetrosexual rape against men is often forgotten about (especially as it's not recognised by UK law, which is abhorrent imo), and is important in this issue. Personally, I'd propose a similar system to the way we deal with other emotional traumas- financial compensation. It's not perfect, but when dealing with abortion things never are.

Also this situation has another interesting caveat that I hadn't thought about. So if the mother raped the father, the mother would (and should) be incarcerated. So what happens to the child? I think forcing the father to bring it up is unfair, but I also think most father's would choose to anyway. If they choose to do you think the mother should be solely financially responsible? Should the farther be compensated by the state, as he is preventing it from going into care? But then isn't that just doing a parents job?

Another interesting question- if the mother at 22 weeks decides she doesn't want to keep it, and the father doesn't want it either: should she be allowed to abort it? If she has it then it will end up in care, which is likely going to be a bad life. If she is allowed, what about another mother not in this situation who knows her child will have a bad life?

They are just some interesting points I'll be doing some thinking about. The issue with abortion is that it's easy to idealise and forget there are so many people with different interests involved, and at the end of the day we have to choose what we think is most important
I won’t try to answer all of those points right now but I’ll briefly try to detail my understanding of the limits of bodily autonomy. Obviously no one has complete autonomy, hence certain actions are considered criminal. Probably most legal theorists involved with this topic would subscribe to the idea that the state removes certain autonomy for the good of society/person. The utilitarian argument supports the idea that the autonomy of the individual can be restricted for the greater good of society, while the paternalism arguments suggests that the state removes some autonomy to protect the individual from themselves (e.g. voluntary euthanasia). Ultimately laws are made with the opinions of society in mind. For example, a general observation of the population might find that causing intentional pain to something that is defenceless and can feel that pain is considered cruel, hence the difference in legislation between the abortion of a foetus at 10 weeks and the abortion of a foetus at 30 weeks. If you go back two hundred years, the general views of society could probably be summed up as seeing abortions as morally wrong (probably sinful), so banning them would have been considered in the interest of a Christian society where women weren’t valued as highly as they are today. Probably the most popular viewpoint now is that the well-being and autonomy of the mother trump the well-being of an unfeeling foetus, hence serving a greater good in society and taking away to autonomy of the foetus (one could argue that it doesn’t have autonomy, but simply the prospect of it).

The answer is probably a lot more complicated than this, but it might give you a little insight into some of the general legal principles surrounding the restriction on autonomy.
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