Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#41
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#41
(Original post by AW_1983)
Yes, but the rules that the Brexiters follow is that the losing side doesn't count and no one gives a toss what they want. So in Scotland and Northern Ireland, Leavers don't count in the same way as I don't count as a Remainer in England.
Well this isn't true is it? How does the liberal Democrats, let's not forget they are made up of tory and labour elected parliamentarians, fit into this analysis? That's just for a start, nobody is saying you don't count, if the remainer parliamentarians in parliament had represented us properly we would now have a Brexit which shadowed membership of the European union, a compromise which would of solved the impasse.

What you are typing is a ridiculous, how on earth could and independent Wales work which out the poor regions of Wales being decimated, as I said a huge can of worms is being added. Referda and parliamentary democracy don't mix, surely Brexit is nothing else has proved this, why on earth do you want more referenda?
0
reply
AW_1983
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#42
Report 4 weeks ago
#42
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Well this isn't true is it? How does the liberal Democrats, let's not forget they are made up of tory and labour elected parliamentarians, fit into this analysis? That's just for a start, nobody is saying you don't count, if the remainer parliamentarians in parliament had represented us properly we would now have a Brexit which shadowed membership of the European union, a compromise which would of solved the impasse.

What you are typing is a ridiculous, how on earth could and independent Wales work which out the poor regions of Wales being decimated, as I said a huge can of worms is being added. Referda and parliamentary democracy don't mix, surely Brexit is nothing else has proved this, why on earth do you want more referenda?
Wales getting independence is no more ridiculous than Brexit itself. I would prefer the UK to stay intact and the UK to remain in the EU but if England insists on leaving, then the rest of the UK needs to look out for its own interests. A UK without England might be the only way to respect the views of the peoples of Scotland, Northern Ireland and the west of Wales.
0
reply
Lwajura
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#43
Report 4 weeks ago
#43
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
1) What is you're solution to unite the country and get on with real life policies. If you had control to do so but was answerable to the uk electorate.

Mine would be, go back to the EU arrange a Canada deal we turned down and erect a hard boarder at the mainland ports, allow NI to remain a member of the CU SM as they elected to do and opinions polls show that want. Screw the DUP they are the minority and in democracy majority rules.

2) If you was PM in current minority how would you propose to solve the current brexit impass.

Mine would be to table a motion of no confidence in myself.

1) should I win it boycott parliament and start and election campaign based on the machiavellian mannerisms opposition benches have acted, forcing the queen to intervene and desolve parliament.

2) should I lose, travel to Buckingham palace and instruct the queen to allow Jeremy Corbyn to form a government and return to campaign mode immediately

Either way the result will be a GE, I would win because people want brexit done and labour would sink themselves either way.

If I had a majority government I would return to point one. If I had a minority government or a weak majority, I would reheat the exit agreement with the clear choice this or no deal, which would never happen.

End result brexit delivered soft or true and the country can start to rebuild again and stop the rot.
bro ur on to something here do u wanna be my agent?
0
reply
Andrew97
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#44
Report 4 weeks ago
#44
(Original post by AW_1983)
Wales getting independence is no more ridiculous than Brexit itself. I would prefer the UK to stay intact and the UK to remain in the EU but if England insists on leaving, then the rest of the UK needs to look out for its own interests. A UK without England might be the only way to respect the views of the peoples of Scotland, Northern Ireland and the west of Wales.
Wales also voted to leave.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#45
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#45
(Original post by AW_1983)
Wales getting independence is no more ridiculous than Brexit itself. I would prefer the UK to stay intact and the UK to remain in the EU but if England insists on leaving, then the rest of the UK needs to look out for its own interests. A UK without England might be the only way to respect the views of the peoples of Scotland, Northern Ireland and the west of Wales.
Of course it is, a life outside the European union is not ridiculous at all its perfectly viable and has happened in recent years. Reality is wales gains money from the United kingdom and without it would be significantly worse off, to the contrary the European union costs wales money.

Furthermore, the decision in wales by the electorate in Wales was to Leave the European Union. This was won Leave 52.5% 854,572 Votes vs Remain 47.5%772,347 Votes. I afraid you are talking out your hat
0
reply
mrbeanfan
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#46
Report 4 weeks ago
#46
we should split the country in half and then some people can stay in the europe and others can go in non europe hellhole aka the bottom half :cool:
0
reply
AW_1983
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#47
Report 4 weeks ago
#47
(Original post by Andrew97)
Wales also voted to leave.
The eastern side did. The west voted to remain. That's why I said west.

Attention to detail - something Brexiters don't have!
0
reply
AW_1983
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#48
Report 4 weeks ago
#48
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Of course it is, a life outside the European union is not ridiculous at all its perfectly viable and has happened in recent years. Reality is wales gains money from the United kingdom and without it would be significantly worse off, to the contrary the European union costs wales money.

Furthermore, the decision in wales by the electorate in Wales was to Leave the European Union. This was won Leave 52.5% 854,572 Votes vs Remain 47.5%772,347 Votes. I afraid you are talking out your hat
And you're talking *******s. Unless you can give an example of a country that successfully left the EU after nearly half a century of integration?
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#49
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#49
(Original post by AW_1983)
And you're talking *******s. Unless you can give an example of a country that successfully left the EU after nearly half a century of integration?
The EU didn't even exist until 1993. I gave you unequivocal fact, you can't just cherry pick sections of countries to flatter you view, should London be exempt also?

You still avoid how an independent Wales could work without the membership of the United kingdom and the funds we send them, I think we both know why.

My original point still stands having more referenda is like opening a huge can of worms, brexit has proved referendum and parliamentary democracy don't mix.


The reason this country is in a mess is mainly remainer parliamentarians and the two extreme sides, of which neither are willing to give a millimetre (although remainer gave less than leave in parliament) or apply a gram of commonsense or logic to the debate.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 4 weeks ago
0
reply
AW_1983
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#50
Report 4 weeks ago
#50
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The EU didn't even exist until 1993. I gave you unequivocal fact, you can't just cherry pick sections of countries to flatter you view, should London be exempt also?

You still avoid how an independent Wales could work without the membership of the United kingdom and the funds we send them, I think we both know why.

My original point still stands having more referenda is like opening a huge can of worms, brexit has proved referendum and parliamentary democracy don't mix.


The reason this country is in a mess is mainly remainer parliamentarians and the two extreme sides, of which neither are willing to give a millimetre (although remainer gave less than leave in parliament) or apply a gram of commonsense or logic to the debate.
In the first paragraph, you split hairs to avoid the question. EEC, EU. It's been something developing that the UK has been a part of since January 1973. So that argument is about as useful as a chocolate teapot and your 'unequivocal fact' is a red herring.

Next. I never said Wales should become independent, I said they should have to choose between being part of the UK and having Brexit. If they choose Brexit and England does the same, they could be part of some new bloc. Call it Wangland. And if they do choose Brexit, I don't care whether it works out for them or not anyway, the point is that they have no right to drag other countries in the union down with them!

Third paragraph. 'Referendums open cans of worms' is a pretty belated argument given the mess we're already in. Denying voters the right to have a view on the EU again is also a rather dubious and sinister way to 'take back control.' More generally, holding a position that it is a bad idea to have a vote because people might have strong opinions isn't very democratic is it?

Final paragraph, given the state of the ERG and the DUP you can't really argue that they are in any way willing to compromise. You also choose to ignore the shared opinion of the ERG, DUP and Remainers in Parliament that they had to vote against the deal because it would make the UK a vassal state. I believe that as strongly as Jacob Rees-Mogg - there is no benefit in Brexiting to become a rule taker instead of a rule maker in Brussels. That's why the May deal failed, because anyone who cared enough about the UK whether Brexiter or Remainer knew we were selling out our sovereignty.
0
reply
Vinny C
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#51
Report 4 weeks ago
#51
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Load of total nonsense, you can spout a lie a thousand times but its doesn't make it any more true.
Nice to see Farage turning on Cummings, just like he turned on UKIP. He goes around creating hate fuelled monsters then turns his back on them. Nothing to do with me, cheers!
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#52
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#52
(Original post by AW_1983)
In the first paragraph, you split hairs to avoid the question. EEC, EU. It's been something developing that the UK has been a part of since January 1973. So that argument is about as useful as a chocolate teapot and your 'unequivocal fact' is a red herring.
No I didn't utter nonsense, revisit what I written in #45. Should you do this it will prove your point above and below completely wrong.

While in that point if the EU was the EEC of 1980's we would not be leaving, so I believe that's what you called a red herring above? Ironically


(Original post by AW_1983)

Next. I never said Wales should become independent, I said they should have to choose between being part of the UK and having Brexit. If they choose Brexit and England does the same, they could be part of some new bloc. Call it Wangland. And if they do choose Brexit, I don't care whether it works out for them or not anyway, the point is that they have no right to drag other countries in the union down with them!
So providing you have actually read what i typed, you will now see you're text above for the make believe it is. You likened know wales becoming independent to brexit and also implied it would be undemocratic to bring wales into "england indentity crisis" and I provided you with unequivocal proof that is nonsensical because Wales voted for Brexit. As well as point out that Wales gains money from UK membership and loses it on EU membership! You cant pick and choose when you are in a union or not, in or out.



(Original post by AW_1983)
Third paragraph. 'Referendums open cans of worms' is a pretty belated argument given the mess we're already in. Denying voters the right to have a view on the EU again is also a rather dubious and sinister way to 'take back control.' More generally, holding a position that it is a bad idea to have a vote because people might have strong opinions isn't very democratic is it? .
Well this is the point I was making direct democracy and parliamentary democracy don't mix. Its one or the other. The only group of people denying the public a say now are the rebel alliance of remainer parliamentarians... remainer parliamentarians acting against democracy... again .... who'd of ever thought it?



(Original post by AW_1983)
final paragraph, given the state of the ERG and the DUP you can't really argue that they are in any way willing to compromise. You also choose to ignore the shared opinion of the ERG, DUP and Remainers in Parliament that they had to vote against the deal because it would make the UK a vassal state. I believe that as strongly as Jacob Rees-Mogg - there is no benefit in Brexiting to become a rule taker instead of a rule maker in Brussels. That's why the May deal failed, because anyone who cared enough about the UK whether Brexiter or Remainer knew we were selling out our sovereignty.
The DUP are irrelevant in numbers, the ERG did in majority compromise, even JRM voted for MV3 in the end. Remainer parliamentarians are to blame for this whole mess, they are the ones that have frustrated brexit at every opportunity against the national interest. Labour was elected to deliver brexit, despite wanting almost the exact same thing as TM, they rejected remaining in the EU's SM,CU and Regulatory alignment, dispite claiming they wanted the exact same thing, they rejected a second referendum, they rejected a general election twice despite saying they wanted one.... and they rejected the withdrawal agreement they previously said they agreed with.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 4 weeks ago
0
reply
Retired_Messiah
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#53
Report 4 weeks ago
#53
If I had control when the referendum was first done I would've done some feeler talks before pushing MPs into voting through article 50 so we could all go into things knowing what potential brexit types were plausible, and then have MPs vote on the type(s) of brexit that they wanted negotiators to gun for. Grounding everyone in reality beforehand would've done wonders to avoid the highly polarised setting we now find ourselves in.

If I was in now... *******s, really, innit? Both sides have gone a bit mad so there'll be no easy instant people-uniting solution. However, I would see about easing up on our red lines to give us more options for allowing May's deal to get renegotiated into something softer, then put that to parliament. Would give us more options, at the very least. Would toy with the idea of a vote on the final deal but dunno if I'd actually do that cause no matter what the options I put on it would be, somebody would complain.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#54
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#54
(Original post by Retired_Messiah)
If I had control when the referendum was first done I would've done some feeler talks before pushing MPs into voting through article 50 so we could all go into things knowing what potential brexit types were plausible, and then have MPs vote on the type(s) of brexit that they wanted negotiators to gun for. Grounding everyone in reality beforehand would've done wonders to avoid the highly polarised setting we now find ourselves in.

If I was in now... *******s, really, innit? Both sides have gone a bit mad so there'll be no easy instant people-uniting solution. However, I would see about easing up on our red lines to give us more options for allowing May's deal to get renegotiated into something softer, then put that to parliament. Would give us more options, at the very least. Would toy with the idea of a vote on the final deal but dunno if I'd actually do that cause no matter what the options I put on it would be, somebody would complain.
Softer how does May's deal get any softer?

I agree with you about votes, That said before I should have been a series of indicative votes before article 50 was triggered in the first place, but parliamentarians didn't want that, they have made a royal mess of the entire process.
0
reply
Retired_Messiah
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#55
Report 4 weeks ago
#55
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Softer how does May's deal get any softer?

I agree with you about votes, That said before I should have been a series of indicative votes before article 50 was triggered in the first place, but parliamentarians didn't want that, they have made a royal mess of the entire process.
May's deal is based in a refusal to keep common market membership because of the whole freedom of movement thing. If you allow yourself to be open to freedom of movement, you get more negotiation options. Not necessarily anything parliament would reasonably pass (opposition would opposition for the sake of it, DUP would say no, ERG problems), but would allow for more extensions to negotiate something vaguely palatable.

Dunno if anything was said about indicative votes by anybody before article 50 was triggered, would say that one's effectively everybody's fault.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#56
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#56
(Original post by Retired_Messiah)
May's deal is based in a refusal to keep common market membership because of the whole freedom of movement thing. If you allow yourself to be open to freedom of movement, you get more negotiation options. Not necessarily anything parliament would reasonably pass (opposition would opposition for the sake of it, DUP would say no, ERG problems), but would allow for more extensions to negotiate something vaguely palatable.

Dunno if anything was said about indicative votes by anybody before article 50 was triggered, would say that one's effectively everybody's fault.
Parliamentarians had the power to do that if they wanted, it's not everyone's fault, its parliamentarians fault!

I see you're point but keeping freedom of movement would simply be ridiculous to many people. What's the benefit of leaving the EU if you are not leaving any part of the EU?
0
reply
Retired_Messiah
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#57
Report 3 weeks ago
#57
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Parliamentarians had the power to do that if they wanted, it's not everyone's fault, its parliamentarians fault!

I see you're point but keeping freedom of movement would simply be ridiculous to many people. What's the benefit of leaving the EU if you are not leaving any part of the EU?
Fair play, they should have been more wary beforehand that the executive maybe shouldn't have swanned in before everybody had a majority consensus on some kind plan/

Yes, keeping freedom of movement wouldn't please many people. As I said in my OG post, at this point I don't think there's a way to actually please everybody as many have shifted to extremes. With common market you'd at least have something that'd appease (now ex) Tory moderates and probably be relatively palatable to a lot of Labour.

IMO, being a remainer I genuinely believe a common market type brexit would be the best one, but do concede it more or less eliminates the few potential benefits of brexit that exist, as it's effectively keeping the status quo in all but name.
0
reply
Burton Bridge
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#58
Report Thread starter 3 weeks ago
#58
(Original post by Retired_Messiah)
Fair play, they should have been more wary beforehand that the executive maybe shouldn't have swanned in before everybody had a majority consensus on some kind plan/

Yes, keeping freedom of movement wouldn't please many people. As I said in my OG post, at this point I don't think there's a way to actually please everybody as many have shifted to extremes. With common market you'd at least have something that'd appease (now ex) Tory moderates and probably be relatively palatable to a lot of Labour.

IMO, being a remainer I genuinely believe a common market type brexit would be the best one, but do concede it more or less eliminates the few potential benefits of brexit that exist, as it's effectively keeping the status quo in all but name.
So why did remainer parliamentarians reject a customs union deal?

This is the point I've been making for months, may deal had a customs union in it, remainers rejected it. They want the same things but are playing political games and people can't see it
0
reply
Retired_Messiah
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#59
Report 3 weeks ago
#59
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
So why did remainer parliamentarians reject a customs union deal?

This is the point I've been making for months, may deal had a customs union in it, remainers rejected it. They want the same things but are playing political games and people can't see it
May's deal was a bit weird as the backstop isn't particularly good. At the time I imagine it was presumed that May wouldn't attempt to push the same thing 3 times and would try for something different, but ofc the red lines were never reneged. That said I imagine labour would've been a bunch of dicks even if she did change it. Opposition's gotta opposition.

Meanwhile ofc you've got the SNP who want nothing to do with brexit because they believe it's against the will of the Scots and the interests of scots, and then Green and Lib Dems literally do not care about the referendum and are pure remain people. Even back then they were on the people's vote train.

At the end of the day I don't know why the public thought they could reasonably trust a british government to deliver anything.
0
reply
AW_1983
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#60
Report 3 weeks ago
#60
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No I didn't utter nonsense, revisit what I written in #45. Should you do this it will prove your point above and below completely wrong.

While in that point if the EU was the EEC of 1980's we would not be leaving, so I believe that's what you called a red herring above? Ironically

So providing you have actually read what i typed, you will now see you're text above for the make believe it is. You likened know wales becoming independent to brexit and also implied it would be undemocratic to bring wales into "england indentity crisis" and I provided you with unequivocal proof that is nonsensical because Wales voted for Brexit. As well as point out that Wales gains money from UK membership and loses it on EU membership! You cant pick and choose when you are in a union or not, in or out.

Well this is the point I was making direct democracy and parliamentary democracy don't mix. Its one or the other. The only group of people denying the public a say now are the rebel alliance of remainer parliamentarians... remainer parliamentarians acting against democracy... again .... who'd of ever thought it?

The DUP are irrelevant in numbers, the ERG did in majority compromise, even JRM voted for MV3 in the end. Remainer parliamentarians are to blame for this whole mess, they are the ones that have frustrated brexit at every opportunity against the national interest. Labour was elected to deliver brexit, despite wanting almost the exact same thing as TM, they rejected remaining in the EU's SM,CU and Regulatory alignment, dispite claiming they wanted the exact same thing, they rejected a second referendum, they rejected a general election twice despite saying they wanted one.... and they rejected the withdrawal agreement they previously said they agreed with.
Your suggestion that Remainers have frustrated Brexit is absolute rubbish. At worst, they've forced the government to deliver something that in some way resembles what Leave voters opted for in 2016 instead of the absolute shambles that was the Withdrawal Deal and - prior to that - May's efforts for a Brexit in Name Only that, after being told where to go by Juncker, turned into the silly Lancaster House speech that left May with no room for manouvre in the negotiations.

The problem is Brexit is a stupid idea with no detailed plans for implementation. That's why we are at this impasse, because when three Brexiters were appointed to the key roles to deliver, all three failed to come up with anything workable.

And one final point. You advocate for democracy whilst ignoring freedom. That's a dangerous path to go down, letting the majority decide on matters by plebiscite. Brexit as a policy, because all the promises of 'they need us more than we need them' and the fanciful claims that we could keep access to the single market without freedom of movement and all the other nonsense have obviously not come to pass, now does nothing except erode the freedoms of British people for no tangible benefit. Do you really want to live in a country where people fuelled by envy can hold plebiscites to curtail the freedoms of others for no other reason than spite, which is what Brexit has become?
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Would you turn to a teacher if you were being bullied?

Yes (65)
23.21%
No (215)
76.79%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed