Liberal Democrats consider scrapping Brexit

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Kinyonga
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Liberal Democrat party members are in Bournemouth for their annual conference, with the party's leader hoping to convince them to back a new policy of scrapping Brexit without another referendum.

Jo Swinson says holding the referendum got the UK "into a mess".

And she believes revoking Article 50 - the formal process to leave the EU - is the only satisfactory way out.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49698800

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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Kinyonga)
Liberal Democrat party members are in Bournemouth for their annual conference, with the party's leader hoping to convince them to back a new policy of scrapping Brexit without another referendum.

Jo Swinson says holding the referendum got the UK "into a mess".

And she believes revoking Article 50 - the formal process to leave the EU - is the only satisfactory way out.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49698800
While I do fully believe that this is the correct thing to do, they must be extremely careful how they present this to the electorate.
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ThomH97
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The Lib Dems aren't trying to gain control of the Commons, they know it's beyond reach. They've probably calculated they'll get a bigger proportion of the 48% (which they now assume is higher to Remain) by standing for an automatic Remain than a referendum where they would compete with Labour.

While the main two parties need to tread somewhat delicately for their long term credibility, the Lib Dems are indeed free to focus on small groups of the electorate here and there, with no care for the population as a whole.
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Andrew97
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Lol. Does anybody take them seriously?
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Alt Tankie
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Far more sensible than the farce of going through another referendum which they know they can’t win and don’t have any intention of following through on
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fallen_acorns
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it would be a good move for them.

First, its a clear and easily idenfiable and explainable possition. You support remaining? vote for us, and we will remain? It also solves them having to deal with the confusion of justifying a second referendum, which is a messy nightmare to justify. Remaining is far easier.. and if anyone calls them undemocratic they just need to point out that the only way they could ever actually do it, is if they recieved a majority in a general election which would give them a clear democratic mandate that would over-rule the mandate of the referendum.

Plus it seperates them from Labour, and means that potentially going into an election we could have:

Lib dem = remain 100%.
Labour = negotiate a deal, then hold a referendum on their own deal
Conservative = negotiate a deal, no-deal brexit if one can't be done
Brexit party = no deal brexit.
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Rakas21
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While I would never support the policy I think this is a positive move for them.

It may also help the Tories by driving the Remain vote to them rather than Labour.
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MagnumKoishi
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
the only way they could ever actually do it, is if they received a majority in a general election
Unfortunately, the beauty of first past the post makes this untrue.
It's possible (and happens) for a party to get a majority of seats in parliament, whilst actually receiving less votes than another party.

And also the consequences of split votes. Let's say in an extremely unlikely scenario, in every constituency: 30% voted tories, 30% voted BXP and the remaining 40% voted lib dems. That's 60% voting for parties set on brexit, yet lib dems would end up dominating parliament (without even an opportunity for coalitions due to FPTP) and going remain. Of course labour is there to split the remain vote a bit too, and a situation like this would never happen but it just demonstrates that the system is flawed.

Proportional representation ftw! Referenda are far more democratic than general elections for this very reason- a second referendum would come out with a democratic result which no one can blame on FPTP or deals between parties. It's the most fair option. The only reason to refuse a referendum is fear of losing it; and relying on FPTP to cheat your way into winning
Last edited by MagnumKoishi; 1 year ago
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Notoriety
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Voting for them means you support revoking Art 50; same practical effect as ticking "Remain" in a second ref (with less of the fuss).

The problem is of course that the Lib Dems would never get near a majority to get this through. Even for the people who support this -- and there are many -- they just are not willing to leave the parties they are traditionally loyal to in order to support it.

Would be vastly different if Labour went down the same road, but they won't do that given they'd lose a lot of support in the North of England. The union seats.
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MagnumKoishi
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(Original post by Rakas21)
It may also help the Tories by driving the Remain vote to them rather than Labour.
Exactly. This is also what the brexit party is doing to the tories though- splitting their vote and just being a general nuisance to them lol, in the process reducing the chances of brexit
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Rakas21
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(Original post by MagnumKoishi)
Exactly. This is also what the brexit party is doing to the tories though- splitting their vote and just being a general nuisance to them lol, in the process reducing the chances of brexit
That would be true but for 2 factors..

1) The Tories are doing a far better job of gaining Brx votes than Labour were Lib votes even before this revoke talk.

2) Youguv have the Brx split at 57% Tory, 33% Labour so the hit on the Tories is already smaller than you’d think and reducing.

As things stand I’m pretty confident.
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Napp
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Good on them. A pleasant change of tune to hear hear politicians talking sense for once.
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by MagnumKoishi)
Unfortunately, the beauty of first past the post makes this untrue.
It's possible (and happens) for a party to get a majority of seats in parliament, whilst actually receiving less votes than another party.

And also the consequences of split votes. Let's say in an extremely unlikely scenario, in every constituency: 30% voted tories, 30% voted BXP and the remaining 40% voted lib dems. That's 60% voting for parties set on brexit, yet lib dems would end up dominating parliament (without even an opportunity for coalitions due to FPTP) and going remain. Of course labour is there to split the remain vote a bit too, and a situation like this would never happen but it just demonstrates that the system is flawed.

Proportional representation ftw! Referenda are far more democratic than general elections for this very reason- a second referendum would come out with a democratic result which no one can blame on FPTP or deals between parties. It's the most fair option. The only reason to refuse a referendum is fear of losing it; and relying on FPTP to cheat your way into winning
I meant achieve a majority of seats. Its normal use of the term majority when talking about elections.. e.g. 'I don't think the torries can achieve a majority this time' or 'in 2015 the torries surprised everyone by getting a majority'

Your right about all your points relating to FPTP though - I agree with all of them.

The issue for the Lib dems with another referendum, is that the winning party is not the party to administer the result, so you could end up with Boris+co being forced to try and remain, or the libs being forced to try and leave. Neither is an optimal way to procede as both will be forced to take an action they dont want, and probably look for a way to get around it somewhat. For example if forced to remain, I imagine the hardline brexiteers would try and seek some concessions from the EU (unsuccsefully) or put in place another potential exit route in the years to come.. equally if forced to leave, I imagine the lib dems would try and keep us in in all but name. For me we need a vote, but one that ends up with the winning side in goverment, able to impliment the vision that they recieved a public mandate for in the vote. A referendum doesn't always give you that.
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0895
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Is everyone on here slightly mad or deranged, we had a democratic vote, David Cameron sent a leaflet to every household in the UK saying the Government WILL implement what you decide.

What a lot of people forget is the EU you have now is not a static entity. Their motto is 'ever closer union' . E.g. A United States of Europe. Individual sovereignty would be taken away. We are already called a 'member state' not a country. They have their currency, they have their parliament, they have their central bank, now they want an EU army.
Did any of you vote for Donald Tusk, or Juncker? No, they were appointed by a secret cabal. The European Council, all appointees, there is no democracy. Germany failed twice to win control of Europe using force, so now they will do it with the help of Brussels bureaucrats and the French! That if I remember correctly, with the USA we had to help liberate from German control and now they are their poodle.

How on earth can that woman who leads a party called Liberal DEMOCRATS, try to do something totally un-democratic by saying, sorry folks, we're just tossing it all away and forgetting about it. You 17.4 million people, errr sorry, not gonna happen. It would be really, really really bad. Their would be riots and civil disobedience, anyone who can remember the year 2000 when the hauliers and farmers blockaded the oil refineries so the petrol tankers couldn't get out, Tony Blair was ****ting himself, because the country was about 2 days away from a complete shut down because they wouldn't listen that people didn't want to pay a huge increase in petrol tax. Most of you won't remember that.
You will however know about the French, and the Gilets- Jaune, the yellow vests and their riots. If she, that stupid stupid woman thinks she could just revoke that, well, she would need constant protection from 6 6ft6 black dudes. And a bullet proof Range Rover and to live in a gated complex with 24 hr security.
We have wasted far too long on this.

Our trade has been going down with Europe since the 90s, from 60% to 50% in the 00s, to pushing down towards 40% now.

And the problem, Freedom of Movement. If David Cameron had come back with an opt out from that, that you need a job and visa and to earn a certain amount before you can come to the UK, the he would have won easily 60:40.
But he went and asked for a few crumbs and came back with even less.

Everyone moans about the NHS and school places, How on earth can you plan forward, like a 5 yr plan for both when you have half a billion people, any of which can legally pitch up here, and be entitled to all the benefit of a Brit, regardless of what they have contributed. This is what annoys people in the old industrial towns of the North, and the Midlands. Some managed immigration is good. Mass uncontrolled immigration that Tony Blair presided over was unacceptable to the British people. It wasn't in any of Labour manifestos of 97, 01 or 05. Would you like and extra 5 million people to join us, many of low skills or no skills , and those are the ones we know about. The supermarkets and the energy companies reckon the people of the UK is around 75 million, the government official figure is around 65/66 million. This is why The Brexit Party swept the board in the Euro elections.

And the EU, is not finished yet, Turkey is itching to get in, they already have certain trade deals, then you have Ukrsine, Serbia, Albania (are they in now I forget!) to name but a few more, all poor, all corrupt. You think Romania is bad and dodgy and corrupt, wait until more Albanian drug gangs arrive.

And what is Ms Swinson not telling you, go ask the Greeks, the EU crushed that country to maintain the Union, they should have been booted out as bankrupt, because they were and the Drachma reminted and printed. Go ask the huge amounts of under 25s in Greece, Portugal , Italy, Spain where in some areas of these countries youth unemployment is running at upto 40%. But that is kept quiet.

Go on Youtube and spend an hour watching Brexit the Movie which explains how corrupt, unaccountable, and undemocratic the EU actually is.

And my final point for now, because I could type all night.... Some of you may have heard of 1970/80s politicians Nigel Lawson, Mrs Thatcher's second Chancellor and Dr. David Owen, Labour MP who broke away in 1981 in 'The gang of 4' including Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams to form the SDP they were so fed up with Labour. Both of these were ardent Europhiles in the late 70s and the 1980s, They thought it was marvellous and we should be at the heart of it. They both voted OUT, and there are their lectures on Youtube that they both gave at Harvard in the USA explaining their reasons why.

Now, of you don't want to listen to little old me, I think, for 2 guys who were at the heart of government for the better part of 2 decades, they know how the EEC or Common Market, the fore-runner to the EU worked and works.
Yes, you will say, but Mrs Thatcher even voted In, in 1975, yes, because it was a free trading block, there was nothing about a single currency or anything that appeared in the late 80s when Mrs Thatcher gave her famous speech in Bruges. " We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain only to see them reimposed at a European level."

Nigel Lawson wantd to join the ERM, a fore-runner to the single currency where all the european currencies were ties together in bands against each other, they argued that much that in October 1989, he had had enough and resigned. Eventually John Major persuaded her we had to go in and she reluctantly agreed. But we went in at far too high a level against the DM. German currency which lead to us crashing out in September 1992. Proving Mrs Thatcher right!
So...... my point being if two men who were so INTO this project, because that is what it is, a project, are now so AGAINST it, in my opinion us, the little people who haven't sat at the Cabinet table or worked in Whitehall or in Brussels should LISTEN to them and do what they say and GET OUT. Jo Swinson wasn't even born until 1980. She was 9 when Nigel Lawson resigned and 10 when Mrs Thatcher resigned. and 12 when we crashed out of the ERM.
I would love to know if she has checked up on her history as to why these events in history happened? Because when the Euro was created in 1999 you had all these countries come together, who were all at different stages in their business cycles, Germany needed high interest rates to dampen down it's economy, it's a huge exporter of all those flash Mercs etc, but the Club Med group of Greece Spain etc, were in the doldrums, they needed stimulating they needed low interest rates to encourage money borrowing by businesses to invest and grow and for new businesses to be set up, and there you had it right at the start, it was never going to work. And it isn't working.
But Jo Swinson takes the flag onward from George Osborne and Project Fear.

What they don't understand is the British people DID understand what they were voting for, it's in David Cameron's nice little leaflet. We will leave the Single Market and the Customs Union. We will implement what you the British people decide. It was the Biggest vote in Britain for anything EVER in BRITISH VOTING HISTORY.
And for Parliament to steal basically control of Parliament from the Executive, i.e. the Government, with the help of Bercow who was supposed to be a Tory is absolutely disgusting. Now it will drag on another 3 months, BUT not if the French have anything to do with it, for once they are right, you have had half a year, what makes you think you can sort anything else out in 12 weeks.

We should have had an election called to break the dead lock and sweep out the remainers in Parliament who are blocking the will of the people in a Democratic vote which has been enshrined in law AND parliament voted to enact Article 50 and leave last March. The British people don't care if it's with a deal, without a deal, or even a Christmas card from Junker to every house in the land. They just want it over. In a few months we will have been discussing this , the before the vote and the aftermath for nearly 5 years. We don't want to be part of a political project. We joined a free trade club. We never voted in 1975 to have a single currency and become a United States of Europe. Can you imagine Mrs Thathcher in THAT jumper of European flags agreeing to vote for that, she was voting for free trade. Europe was doing well, we were 'the sick man of Europe' the 70s were the worst decade ever for British industry and car industry, everyone blames Mrs Thatcher for the downfall of industry and car manufacturing, no, those seeds were all sown in the 1970s under Harold, Ted and Jim, and it was left to a woman with the bigger Boll*x to administer the harsh economic medicine to turn the country the right way back up.

So..... go watch Brexit the Movie on EU tube (nothing to do with immigration, all to do with functioning or rather not functioning, like how no firm will actually officially sign the accounts off because the EU is so corrupt)
and the Harvard Uni USA lectures of Nigel Lawson and also Dr. David Owen and listen to WHY they changed their minds on the Common market/ EEC/ EU.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Andrew97)
Lol. Does anybody take them seriously?
Unfortunately yes they do.

The naive idea that we can just revoke and forget the whole thing without consequence is ridiculous
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SahasRenuja
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Regardless of whether you are Pro-Brexit or Anti-Brexit you need to understand that there was a fair referendum and this referendum was won by the Leavers. If parties can't recognize this then they might as well as do away with elections because they can just disagree with what the public wanted and set up a dictatorship because what do people know eh?
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harrysbar
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(Original post by SahasRenuja)
Regardless of whether you are Pro-Brexit or Anti-Brexit you need to understand that there was a fair referendum and this referendum was won by the Leavers. If parties can't recognize this then they might as well as do away with elections because they can just disagree with what the public wanted and set up a dictatorship because what do people know eh?
The point is that lots of people who voted Leave did so because they were given false information (lies). So it was not a "fair referendum".
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Burton Bridge
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What is the cost of the undemocratic illiberal policy? What is the actual implications of remaining in the EU?

The country has long since traveled past the point of no return on brexit. Revoke and remain is not a realistic option.

The answer to what happens if we remain is clearly the hard core remainers as some magic amnesia pill for the country, this is clearly a magic unicorn in their degoratory language.


The obvious change Is the rise of the farage style threat led to a still harsher line on Europe? It's not like he wont have powerful and willing ally in many sections of the media. In the right-wing red tops for example. The voice of the people as they would claim.

Also our stature, what kind of Britain would rejoin around the EU table? This would be a Britain that had voted to leave, and would be remaining on terms worse than those it had rejected by Cameron. Or would they still honour the the agreement negotiated by Cameron, would the other members allow this, the spoilt child returns home and keeps his/her toys and privileges over their siblings.


Then theres the cost, most leavers already feel that the Eu is a expensive club to be in,but revoke remaining in that club would make it even more expensive. EU’s budget chief Guenther Oettinger last year made it clear that Britain would lose this rebate worth billions. There are quite simply people in the eu that want to make an example of Britain. I think the whole process from the EU side has been to make an example of Britain. If the 5th largest economy in the world can't leave the EU anybody else is quite simply screwed.


Then the reality of the machiavellian remainers parliamentarians who have scuppered brexit, and embarrassed us around the world. This and the above will diminished power and create a lack of credibility to leave the club in future. What realistic power would we have of controlling anything or exercising any of our supposed vetos? Any referendum result on any future changes that the EU decided to make as it moves into its more federalist direction. Which it is clearly going to make within the next few decades. This literally makes a mockery of any veto or referendum that we will have regarding future changes in the EU and whether to accept them or not, because if we vote too not accept them we're effectively voting to leave. How can we?


The because the entire world knows we cant leave, so we will have to accept any scraps which get thrown our way from our EU masters.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by harrysbar)
The point is that lots of people who voted Leave did so because they were given false information (lies). So it was not a "fair referendum".
Round and round we go because of a lack of intelligence to see both sides of the story .....:mad:
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Round and round we go because of a lack of intelligence to see both sides of the story .....:mad:
Are you calling me unintelligent just because I am pointing out an obvious truth - that people were mislead at the time of the Referendum?
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