Boris to prorogue again - rule by government without Parliament Watch

Vinny C
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#61
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#61
(Original post by lawtc2019)
I have no idea which side of the debate you are on but please accept my heartfelt gratitude for your poignant and thoughtful submission to this debate
Yw... happy to accept an informed result. Not happy accepting one based on lies and bigotry. Not happy to accept do you wish to punch Cameron on the nose or not? He may not have been perfect but at least he was honest.
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DJKL
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Le Male)
You and your disgusting ilk have disobeyed the will of the people and treason gets what treason deserves. I hope we leave with no deal and we can crash the house prices in Londonistan by 40% so real British people can move back in rather than Arab billionaires and the low classes in social housing.
Naive- if you crash house prices bank lending to purchase will dry up and the only people able to buy will be the cash rich who do not need to borrow. In effect crash out and bargain basement the UK, everything becomes cheaper for foreign money, so ask yourself who benefits, the UK poor who feel left behind or those pushing and pulling for No Deal from positions of wealth.
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Le Male
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
What's wrong with AOC ffs? She's the most principled politician in the US.
Bernie is.

She is sorta a bad example, she actually isn't awful, but at the same time she is incredibly ethnocentric and only concerned with La Raza and anyone she can use to benefit her wider goals, which is fine, but call a spade a spade.
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Le Male
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Vinny C)
Er… are we on the same side?
No. I see Cameron, Osborne, May, Major and Blair all as orange book leftists. We have never had a right-wing government or a socialist government at any time in my life.
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username1421435
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#65
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#65
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I am not contradicting myself at all. May had a majority in government yet couldn't get the deal passed. That is the point I am making.

51% of 72% of people is not a majority. It would not be enough to take union action. You cannot make a monumental decision based on that small percentage. By starting this whole process the government has completely excluded the beliefs of half of this country. Like it or lump it, that' is the way it is. 49% of this country has been ignored.
May had a majority in government but not every MP from the government listened to the party whip. If you're going to use my hypothetical situation at least use all of it and not just the bit that suits you!

Your point about it "not being enough to take union action" is irrelevant - what weighting does that have on anything other than a figure that supports your argument from a completely unrelated topic?!

Your point about a 72% turnout is not relevant. Unless you're telling me that every single general election since 1992 should be discounted because they've all had a turnout of less than 72%, stop trying to make that out as a poor showing. Not only was that a high turnout given average turnout rates in elections, it is the job of the people to register to vote and actually use it.

On your last point, you are entirely factually correct. 49% of the country has been ignored. And, in a hypothetical situation with 2 parties and where of all voters, 49% of people voted for the opposition, and 51% for the government (meaning a hypothetical 51-49% share of seats), 49% of the country will still have been ignored. But more people will not have been ignored. It's a simple concept, it isn't up for debate because its a definition, and its called democracy.
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username1421435
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Vinny C)
Yw... happy to accept an informed result. Not happy accepting one based on lies and bigotry. Not happy to accept do you wish to punch Cameron on the nose or not? He may not have been perfect but at least he was honest.
For the record, I voted to remain in 2016, but I respect that leave gained the majority, and would vote accordingly were there to be a second referendum. Not that I believe there should be, mind you...
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Vinny C
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Le Male)
No. I see Cameron, Osborne, May, Major and Blair all as orange book leftists. We have never had a right-wing government or a socialist government at any time in my life.
Trust me... you don't want this one.
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Le Male
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#68
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#68
(Original post by DJKL)
Naive- if you crash house prices bank lending to purchase will dry up and the only people able to buy will be the cash rich who do not need to borrow. In effect crash out and bargain basement the UK, everything becomes cheaper for foreign money, so ask yourself who benefits, the UK poor who feel left behind or those pushing and pulling for No Deal from positions of wealth.
The economy shouldn't be anywhere near as leveraged as it currently is :eek: FFS Man. I want lending to dry up goddamn it
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imlikeahermit
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#69
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#69
(Original post by lawtc2019)
May had a majority in government but not every MP from the government listened to the party whip. If you're going to use my hypothetical situation at least use all of it and not just the bit that suits you!

Your point about it "not being enough to take union action" is irrelevant - what weighting does that have on anything other than a figure that supports your argument from a completely unrelated topic?!

Your point about a 72% majority is not relevant. Unless you're telling me that every single general election since 1992 should be discounted because they've all had a turnout of less than 72%, stop trying to make that out as a poor showing. Not only was that a high turnout given average turnout rates in elections, it is the job of the people to register to vote and actually use it.

You are entirely factually correct. 49% of the country has been ignored. And, in a hypothetical situation with 2 parties and where of all voters, 49% of people voted for the opposition, and 51% for the government (meaning a hypothetical 51-49% share of seats), 49% of the country will still have been ignored. But more people will not have been ignored. It's a simple concept, it isn't up for debate because its a definition, and its called democracy.
Those people who voted leave were lied to though? Were they not? At least with the remain side we had a distinct idea of what we wanted, which was to remain. People on the leave side were lied to. It changes the complexion of that vote entirely. It should have called the whole result into question.


Either way, as I've said in another thread, this is now peoples lives that are being played with here. Medical shortages, shortages of food. You tell those people who will be affected by a shortage of insulin that everything will be all tickety boo.

Cannot wait to see the same people who voted for this farce finally seeing what they have done. I do fear however it'll be after a no deal brexit that it'll finally click.
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Vinny C
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#70
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#70
(Original post by lawtc2019)
For the record, I voted to remain in 2016, but I respect that leave gained the majority, and would vote accordingly were there to be a second referendum. Not that I believe there should be, mind you...
Then you are a fool... this is WW3 acted out diplomatically. By nature... mankind is down for a good scrap every other generation and it's always the whites who suffer.
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DJKL
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#71
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(Original post by Le Male)
The economy shouldn't be anywhere near as leveraged as it currently is :eek: FFS Man. I want lending to dry up goddamn it
Do that and ordinary individuals are going to be lifetime rent payers. If you were working in property in 2007/2008 you would have seen the impact then on the markets, those buying were cash rich investors those left behind were first time buyers. Unless you operate a state lending bank for homeowners you require an operative lending market- can you buy a flat without a mortgage?
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Le Male
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#72
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(Original post by DJKL)
Do that and ordinary individuals are going to be lifetime rent payers. If you were working in property in 2007/2008 you would have seen the impact then on the markets, those buying were cash rich investors those left behind were first time buyers. Unless you operate a state lending bank for homeowners you require an operative lending market- can you buy a flat without a mortgage?
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username1421435
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#73
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#73
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Those people who voted leave were lied to though? Were they not? At least with the remain side we had a distinct idea of what we wanted, which was to remain. People on the leave side were lied to. It changes the complexion of that vote entirely. It should have called the whole result into question.


Either way, as I've said in another thread, this is now peoples lives that are being played with here. Medical shortages, shortages of food. You tell those people who will be affected by a shortage of insulin that everything will be all tickety boo.

Cannot wait to see the same people who voted for this farce finally seeing what they have done. I do fear however it'll be after a no deal brexit that it'll finally click.
Oh come on now you've gone from trying to claim about how there was a poor turnout and an only marginal majority, now you're really going to tug on the "lied to" strings? That's not even an argument, that's a hope on a hypothetical situation which cannot be backed quantitatively or conclusively and really sounds like you're just clutching at straws now. Whilst I didn't agree with your previous points at least you worked with actual data instead of trying to recoup your lost majority with "lied to" voters - come back with something more substantive please.

I don't disagree with the points you make about shortages - I don't necessarily say that we should agree to leave the EU without a deal because this clearly does create problems. We're talking about whether the government has a mandate to take Britain out of the EU, and you haven't successfully convinced me that this is not the case.
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the bear
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#74
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#74
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Lmao. Will of the people. Half of us voted to remain you know... A majority of 2% is hardly the 'will of the people.'
i voted remain as well, along with the vast majority of normal educated people. however, we must accept the result and accept the tragic consequences of Brexit.
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DJKL
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#75
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#75
(Original post by Le Male)
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And your cure is freeze up lending markets so that those with ready access to funds can still buy and those without cannot. Couple it with a downturn in economic activity and greater risk of unemployment and you create a perfect storm . In a market with lending rationed/constrained who does a lender risk granting a loan to, the party with lots of assets/equity or the first time buyer with very little?

When the dust all settles on your new lower priced Nirvana an even larger percentage of the housing stock is owned by what group? Your cure is not a cure, you are pointing out an issue but in no way solving the issue.

If you want to improve asset price affordability do not lock up the works, slow things gradually, build more, put disincentives in place re holding unused property etc. It may not be dramatic, or headline grabbing, it may not be quick, but what is important, actually curing the problem or merely pretending to cure the problem?
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imlikeahermit
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#76
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#76
(Original post by lawtc2019)
Oh come on now you've gone from trying to claim about how there was a poor turnout and an only marginal majority, now you're really going to tug on the "lied to" strings? That's not even an argument, that's a hope on a hypothetical situation which cannot be backed quantitatively or conclusively and really sounds like you're just clutching at straws now. Whilst I didn't agree with your previous points at least you worked with actual data instead of trying to recoup your lost majority with "lied to" voters - come back with something more substantive please.

I don't disagree with the points you make about shortages - I don't necessarily say that we should agree to leave the EU without a deal because this clearly does create problems. We're talking about whether the government has a mandate to take Britain out of the EU, and you haven't successfully convinced me that this is not the case.
I’ve noticed above in another post you’ve stated that you voted to remain, unless I’m mixing it up with another poster. The fact that you, and the person I’ve quoted below have not stuck to your guns and just sat back as this whole episode has unfolded makes me sick.

The best thing for this country is to remain, and if you truly voted to remain in 2016 you should believe in that. I do believe in democracy, but I believe in the best for this country. It is telling that at this moment when leaving looks most likely, democracy has disappeared down the train, a true reflection upon the man who heralded the leave campaign.
(Original post by the bear)
i voted remain as well, along with the vast majority of normal educated people. however, we must accept the result and accept the tragic consequences of Brexit.
See above.
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the bear
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#77
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#77
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
. I do believe in democracy, but I believe in the best for this country.
we must accept the outcome of the Referendumb vote which will have disastrous consequences for everyone. that is the price of democracy.
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username1421435
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#78
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#78
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I’ve noticed above in another post you’ve stated that you voted to remain, unless I’m mixing it up with another poster. The fact that you, and the person I’ve quoted below have not stuck to your guns and just sat back as this whole episode has unfolded makes me sick.

The best thing for this country is to remain, and if you truly voted to remain in 2016 you should believe in that. I do believe in democracy, but I believe in the best for this country. It is telling that at this moment when leaving looks most likely, democracy has disappeared down the train, a true reflection upon the man who heralded the leave campaign.

See above.
You are correct, I did vote to remain in 2016. As a relatively uninformed voter with it being my first referendum I was eligible to vote in, I wouldn't take my vote that seriously. But again, it's beside the point - I value living in a free country where I have the right to vote above the result of any referendum.

You saying that you believe in democracy, but that you also believe in what's best for the country is basically you trying to say "I believe in democracy when it means that I win".

Again, I'll note that this still doesn't have anything to do with our original argument that the government does have a mandate to ensure Brexit.
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Zoqua
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#79
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#79
(Original post by josh75)
"Wow. Talk about bs. If by 'toxic and defeatist' you mean using common sense and a basic understand of economics to tell you what is going to happen when we crash out of the EU without a deal, ruining the country and the prospects of my generation and generations to come, which will be entirely the fault of people like you, then yes. "
Common sense dictates one of the most powerful countries in the world will do fine without being apart of a large bureaucratic protectionist market.So yes what you say is toxic and defeatist.

"It's so funny to see Brexiteers calling remainers 'remoaners', which is not only just a petty insult that makes those who use it look even more immature than they appear beforehand, but is also rather ironic considering how they proceed to then whine, or some would say 'moan' about how it is all the fault of the 'remoaners' and so called 'liberal elite', in other words well educated people who have the audacity to disagree with the angry Brexiteer hoard."
We call you remoaners because its accurate, all you do is catastrophize and whine; instead of acting like adults and accepting the result and moving on.
And so many of these issues we are seeing is your fault, the market is not some static entity. If a large portion of the population start acting like the economy is going to crash and all you do is talk about what bad possibly could happen, businesses are going to be fearful of investing, the market is going to go down. Also you people at every step have flat out done your absolute best to water down brexit to something that is in name only with a huge percentage of you just flat out trying to overturn the vote.

"Boris was elected' yes, he was, by less than 1% of the population, very representative I have to say." No he was elected by the whole of the country during our last general election. We do not vote for the PM we vote for local constituencies, which then at the end of the GE the party with a majortiy of the constituencies gets to choose who they want for PM. Everyone who voted for the Tories had the opportunity to learn of our democratic process and would be to know that this was legal and could happen.

"preferably staying in the EU and deleting the Brexit mess created by Brexiteers over the past few years but life sucks like that and we don't live in a perfect world" Well heres the issue isn't it, you just don't respect the philosophical concept of democracy and national sovereignty, your litterally a technocrat.
People don't seem to be able to tell the difference between 'catastrophize' and tell the truth. 'Acting like adults and accepting the result and moving on' yes, because you guys would totally have done that if we won....... It's actually quite amusing how all the Brexiteers before the referendum were saying 'their going to be horrible to us if we lose', and then are screaming 'remoaners' all over social media three years later. Besides, it's my generation who as adults will have to deal with the fallout of this catastrophic and highly stupid decision made in majority by the elderly, and will probably end up having to fix it (yet another reason why the voting age should be lowered to 16 but that's for another thread).

'so many of these issues we are seeing is (are*) your fault'. Wow. We have some serious hypocrisy going on here when the people who literally voted for this mess start blaming the people those who thought so hard against it for causing it. Don't even try to deflect the blame onto remainers. Businesses have been fearful since Brexit and rightly so, given that they have had no information. What you are saying is the equivalent of blaming a fireman for yelling 'The buildings on fire' to people in side it, to help them be rescued.... I'd rather 'catastrophize' and tell businesses the truth, than have them go off the cliff and go bust, causing mass unemployment, but hey I'm sure a good dose of mass unemployment and economic decline would do this country a world of good............

I am aware of how the system works for deciding who the PM is, my 1% percent point was made more in reference to the fact that he is attempting to shut down parliament to ensure that he, a man who, as I said, was elected by less than 1% of the population has basically dictatorial control over the whole Brexit process. I don't know about you, and the definition of democracy and dictatorship might have changed since I last looked, but one man having basically complete control over the country's future looks exactly like a dictatorship to me........

'you just don't respect the philosophical concept of democracy and national sovereignty, your (you're*) litterally (literally*) a technocrat'. It's really funny hearing about Brexiteers talking about 'national sovereignty' when you support Boris in shutting down Parliament..... blatant hypocrisy would be an appropriate way to describe it. 'concept of democracy' neither does Boris, shutting down Parliament in order to block anyone from making him actually give us a deal.

'your (you're*) litterally (literally*) a technocrat' I'm not sure if that's supposed to be an insult, but if only we had people who actually knew how economics & finance actually worked and actually knew what they were doing running the country, instead of a power obsessed over-privileged maniac who pretends to be a buffoon in order to get people to think he's trustworthy (it is bizarre how people appear to trust those who act stupid and immature more than those who actually act intelligent and well-educated, I suppose it's just an expression of self-inadequacy) which he blatantly isn't, I would be in favor of that (but that's for a different thread).

When we have mass food and medicine shortages and unemployment, and all the people who voted for Brexit start whining about the problem that they have caused, I personally won't feel any pity towards you people whatsoever.
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imlikeahermit
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#80
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#80
(Original post by lawtc2019)
You are correct, I did vote to remain in 2016. As a relatively uninformed voter with it being my first referendum I was eligible to vote in, I wouldn't take my vote that seriously. But again, it's beside the point - I value living in a free country where I have the right to vote above the result of any referendum.

You saying that you believe in democracy, but that you also believe in what's best for the country is basically you trying to say "I believe in democracy when it means that I win".

Again, I'll note that this still doesn't have anything to do with our original argument that the government does have a mandate to ensure Brexit.
Let me ask you this then, since your all high and mighty on democracy...

Say all of the apparent scaremongering, which I would call the truth, comes to fruition. There are medication shortages, food shortages, five day waits at the ports, riots, job losses as companies now can’t afford to stay in our country. My simple question, is all of that worth it, for the act of saying that we followed through with democracy?
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