Let's give a big thank you to Gina Miller Watch

Fullofsurprises
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Sam1999__)
We voted to leave in a democratic vote and you are praising a woman who has been pulling out all the stops to prevent the result of that vote being delivered. The EU is a completely unpatriotic organisation and young people don't seem to understand this. Forget the economics and everything else for a minute and just remember one thing, above all else, we are a nation. If you are a member of the European Union, you surrender many of the faculties that constitute being a nation and that's what we voted to take back. Trade deals are 100% the way to go but the EU has unfortunately gone beyond that in attempting to create a political union, something the British people never asked for. We can be friends and trading partners with European countries but we will do this as a nation, not a satellite of this mutated and failed political project.
You're right. The EU is not a nation. It's a voluntary collaboration between nations that represents the furthest and best developed version of that in history.

There is no evidence that it has failed, but it has changed and that is a valid point. The referendum did not on the whole discuss those changes properly, or present them fairly and objectively.

Nation states are in decline everywhere, they are already largely superceded by global corporations, global organisations and global and regional issues and demands. It's clear that now, lapsing back into petty nationalism is a pointless and self-harming way to proceed.
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thelocalkid
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#62
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#62
I don't understand what that has to do with race
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Burton Bridge
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#63
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#63
(Original post by thelocalkid)
I don't understand what that has to do with race
Nothing mate, absolutely nothing
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QE2
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Lol :rofl3:lets refocus, you made an incorrect statement, so I pointed out two prorogations in our past which proved you're statement wrong and you're response, you call it irrelevant nonsense? Then create a stawman about what i think, you think and get that wrong too. I don't care who you vote for or what you think of John Majors Majors prorogation! The facts are you claimed this had never happened, i proved it has and that's not irrelevant nonsense just because you dont hold the knowledge too debate it.
You seem confused.
No one is claiming that there have never been previous prorogations, or that other prorogations have never been used for party political expediency. Who knows, if someone had felt the need to challenge them in the courts, those prorogations might have also been overturned.

The point is that this one was clearly an undemocratic attempt to stifle parliament's ability to examine and challenge legislation. The supreme court unanimously ruled that it was unlawful. Really not sure what your argument is or where it is supposed to be going

If you believe this does not set a precedent then you need to provide me with information of uk courts intervening in political opinion previously to Miller.
It did not "intervene in political opinion". It ruled on the legality of government action. The courts are constantly ruling on cases involving the government, either as plaintiff or defendant.
And any case can "set a precedent" That's how "legal precedent" works - the clue's kinda in the name.

The brexit party have no manifesto and no policy apart from no deal. They won the last national election, over the lib dems, conservative, ukip, labour etc.
The Brexit party has no seats in parliament. Zero. Wishful thinking?


And you actually think nobody has voted for no deal, do you? Or are you just sucking up the nonsense you're political heros are feeding you?
The referendum question was a simple, binary, Leave/Remain. It made no mention of any deal, therefore no one can possibly have voted for something that wasn't on the ballot paper. Add to this the fact that Leave campaigners repeatedly ruled out No Deal, and promised a Great Deal further proves that no one can have voted for No Deal.
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Burton Bridge
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#65
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#65
The last nation election was for MEP's
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 3 weeks ago
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QE2
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No that's not what I'm saying at all, you are blowing up my words out of all proportion.
Earlier you said that the PM should be able to prorogue whenever and for as long as he likes. Now you are saying that he shouldn't.
It's your confused and contradictory words that are the problem, not other people showing them to be utter nonsense.

I'm saying the courts should not become politicised
So you think that the courts should not be allowed to hold the government to account (one of the fundamental pillars of out parliamentary democracy).

and Johnson has not dont anything other governments in the past have also done.
That's debatable, but even if that were true, why should that matter.
"I should not be tried for these murders, your honour, as other murderers have got away with it in the past". Gotta love your "logic"!

No I'm not a lawyer, and im not saying theh have made legal errors, I'm saying - and I refer you to what I said in my above sentence
So you are just saying that even though the courts were acting within their sphere of constitutional responsibility and jurisdiction, and the ruling was legally correct, you just don't like it. Well, boo ****ing hoo!
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QE2
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Brexiteers who allegedly wanted to return powers to Britain showing their true spots in this saga, accusing the UK supreme court of various things and demanding that the government rule as a dictatorship. It would seem that the claim that Brexit was about solid British values and returning power to our constitution was so much humbug. Brexit is about racism and xenophobia and activating the powers of an extremely right wing oligarchy and nothing whatever to do with our traditions.
PRSOM
In a nutshell.
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QE2
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#68
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#68
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
You get very uptight and defensive when you start too loose the debate, don't you

They are relevant, if the government used them in defence or not is besides the point. The point was johnson has he's done nothing that's not been done in the past. Should other prorogations of undergone this type of scrutiny then many historic prorogations would have been overturned. Which is the point I started from before you led me on a wild goose chase to make a incorrect point. :rolleyes:
So you agree that this particy=ular prorogation was unlawful and the court ruled correctly - but some previous prorogations should also have been ruled unlawful.
Got it!

You're stawman creation continues, I never no deal won,
You said Brexit party won the last national election [sic] on a strict, single issue, No Deal manifesto. So what was your point there?

So you said nobidy voted for no deal, Well thats wrong. 31% of people in the last European elections voted a party who has no other policy, just to be 100% clear for you thats zero, none, zitch policy other than no deal. So clearly people have voted for no deal, because there us no reason to vote for TBP other than if they want no deal.
No one voted for No Deal in the referendum.
However, if you are now using the EU election as the yardstick of public opinion, No Deal (Brexit Party) is in the minority. Therefore parliament is right to block it, because it is not The Will Of The People™.
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QE2
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Justvisited)
the Brits were never wholeheartedly in the EU project,
I am, and so are most people I know. It's the older generations who are against it. The future doesn't belong to them.
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QE2
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#70
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#70
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I have skim read it, not fully read it.
No you haven't. lol!
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QE2
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I don't think of you as someone who says things that haven't been thought out.
Give it time!
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Sam1999__
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#72
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#72
The preservation of nation states isn't "petty nationalism". Nation states are certainly not in decline, populism and nationalism is rising across the world because people don't want to be part of multinational organisations which take away their national identity. There is absolutely nothing wrong with nations co operating and trading together but projects like the EU have gone too far in trying to create an integrated superstate. The countries of Europe are different, they speak different languages, have different cultures, economies and beliefs. Forcing together different nations without ever consulting those people will create nothing put problems.

The Euro currency has been a complete failure, anyone with even a basic understanding of economics will understand this. Having rich and poor countries with different economies all within the same currency is a complete disaster.

The referendum did not present the facts properly, both sides are guilty of this. The bottom line is though, we are an incredibly powerful nation and we will do just fine outside of the EU, the scaremongering in the media would make many believe otherwise though. The people of this nation are incredibly proud of their identity and will never support being absorbed into a European superstate. We can be the best of friends with Europe, just as we are with the US and many other countries in the world, but this should be conducted as a nation, not a multinational organisation that has no accountability and was never put before the people.

As for Gina Miller, had the coin been flipped and remain won, any leave figure who was doing what she is now would be branded a far right extremist and the media would give them no legitimacy whatsoever. The hypocrisy of the left and some members of the remain camp is unbelievable, they sing the song of referendums and democracy until it works against them, now we have a woman who is trying to overturn a democratic referendum who is being hailed as a hero. Smh
Last edited by Sam1999__; 3 weeks ago
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QE2
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
the EU has significantly moved its red lines in 9nly a few weeks thanks to his hardline stance and no deal preparations.
Oh really? What changes have been made to the WA since Boris came to power?


So much so has been sabotaged by Parliament whom knew a deal was coming and simply did not want one, they want to frustrate Brexit and use it against johnson .
Oh dear.
You obviously don't realise that the WA was voted down by Johnson, Mogg and other Brexiteers. If every MP who wanted to leave the EU had voted for the WA, we would have left in March.
You really should learn at least the basics of what's going on.

Did you notice Corbyn's face last night when johnson asked him if he would ask for an extension? That's the last thing Corbyn wants, it's all about of a game they are playing with our lives and welfare.
Erm, Labour want an extension. Are you sure you know which is Johnson and which is Corbyn?
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QE2
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#74
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#74
(Original post by thelocalkid)
I don't understand what that has to do with race
What what has to do with race?
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QE2
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#75
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#75
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The last nation election was for MEP's
Ah, you mean the EU elections, not "the national election". "National" implies relating to a particular nation.

So, you claim that the Brexit Party "won" the EU elections? lol!
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Sam1999__
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#76
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#76
(Original post by QE2)
I am, and so are most people I know. It's the older generations who are against it. The future doesn't belong to them.
You are confusing European project with European co operation. I for one am against the EU, but pro Europe. Many young people I know share this view but voted remain because it was the lesser of two evils. We can have visa free travel and free trade without being in a political union, that is what the vote came down to. And to say the vote of older generations count for less is an extremely vile comment to make considering they built this nation and have the wisdom of age.
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QE2
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#77
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#77
(Original post by Sam1999__)
You are confusing European project with European co operation.
How would you know that? More unsupported assertions from Leavers. When will you learn?

I for one am against the EU, but pro Europe. Many young people I know share this view but voted remain because it was the lesser of two evils.
Therefore demonstrating that Remain is a better option than Leave!

We can have visa free travel and free trade without being in a political union, that is what the vote came down to.
There is far more to it than that - which is why it was a mistake to give the casting vote to a bunch of elderly, racist idiots.

And to say the vote of older generations count for less is an extremely vile comment to make considering they built this nation
"I made it so I can break it". Brilliant argument!

and have the wisdom of age.
Meaningless platitude. Age does not necessarily bring wisdom, often the opposite. Education, open-mindedness, willingness to experience change, exploring the new, taking on the different and difficult - that is where wisdom comes from, not from working in Fords for 45 years, reading the Sun every day and going to Benidorm once a year.
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Sam1999__
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#78
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#78
Being pro Europe does not have to mean being pro EU, they are two different things. Europe is a continent of diverse nations. The EU is a political project which is sneaking in ever deeper political and economic integration. Lets have a Europe of nations being friends, trading together and cooperating militarily through NATO. That means we are free to make trade deals of our own all across the world, control our borders and become a true nation again. Under the EU we are not a nation, that's what we voted to reclaim.

And your assertion that people who voted to leave are 'elderly, racist idiots' just shows the absurdity of your argument. Throwing labels around doesn't add credibility to your argument, it actually does the opposite. Identifying with your nation over a political project that was formed behind closed doors does not make you racist, in fact I hope for all of Europe's sake that the EU crumbles and we can build a new Europe of trade and co-operation without this unwanted political project.

A vote against the EU is not anti European. In fact, anti EU sentiment is brewing right across the continent, not just in the UK. Sometimes you have to take big risks to achieve big results, leaving the EU is a fantastic opportunity to pursue a global future and not have our decisions made for us in Brussels. It is possible to co-operate and trade with countries without projects such as the EU, just look at just about every other part of the world, they seem to manage just fine.
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