Was WW2 really a "just war"?

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Ferrograd
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Please, before you go and start raging in the comments below, hear me out. I would have said the same thing, and I'm merely poitning out a different perspective. I'm not disrespecting any soldiers, because I had relatives who fought in this war. Just listen to the argument.

Often, WW2 is presented as a just war because it was against Nazi Germany, a fascist state that had genocidal policies towards its Jewish population. But Britain didn't go to war with Germany because of how it treated its Jews.

Britain went to war with Germany merely because it invaded Poland, and it didnt' want to see its own interests harmed. Maybe it wasn't known then, but documents suggest that Hitler had no plans to invade or annex Britain, and that instead he planned to form an alliance. Of course, we should have never sided with such an abohorrent state.

It's just a perspective thats all. WW1 was undoubtedly the most pointless war ever, it was just imperialism and it was the Austro-Hungarians who started it, not Germany.

It also seems blatantly hypocritical for America to somehow fight the Nazis and criticise their polices towards the Jews when they were also discriminating against black people at the time, who couldn't even command their own troops in combat or sit on the same buses as the whites. Perhaps this is not known to some, and I only found out recently, but Hitler actually allowed non whites, such as Africans, Arabs, Indians and Central Asians to fight for Germany by forming their own SS legions and the like. Of course this was to cripple empires and the soviet union that the Reich was fighting against, but its still hypocritical of the americans when they had genocided the Indians
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999tigger
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
Please, before you go and start raging in the comments below, hear me out. I would have said the same thing, and I'm merely poitning out a different perspective. I'm not disrespecting any soldiers, because I had relatives who fought in this war. Just listen to the argument.

Often, WW2 is presented as a just war because it was against Nazi Germany, a fascist state that had genocidal policies towards its Jewish population. But Britain didn't go to war with Germany because of how it treated its Jews.

Britain went to war with Germany merely because it invaded Poland, and it didnt' want to see its own interests harmed. Maybe it wasn't known then, but documents suggest that Hitler had no plans to invade or annex Britain, and that instead he planned to form an alliance. Of course, we should have never sided with such an abohorrent state.

It's just a perspective thats all. WW1 was undoubtedly the most pointless war ever, it was just imperialism and it was the Austro-Hungarians who started it, not Germany.

It also seems blatantly hypocritical for America to somehow fight the Nazis and criticise their polices towards the Jews when they were also discriminating against black people at the time, who couldn't even command their own troops in combat or sit on the same buses as the whites. Perhaps this is not known to some, and I only found out recently, but Hitler actually allowed non whites, such as Africans, Arabs, Indians and Central Asians to fight for Germany by forming their own SS legions and the like. Of course this was to cripple empires and the soviet union that the Reich was fighting against, but its still hypocritical of the americans when they had genocided the Indians
1. So you believe it was unjust and the Nazis were right?
2. We were in alliance with Poland and Hitler invaded Poland.
3. Hitler at the time was in the habit of making promises and breaking them hence he wasnt to be trusted.
4.You say merely because it invaded Poland when in fact he had trained himself a massive army and by the time he invaded Poland it was clear he was only just starting.
5. He had plans to invade the UK, but not till affer he had invaded Europe on the way which he did.
6. He would have preferred the UK stayed out of it because he wanted to invade Russia.
7. Had we been in alliance then what would have happened once we discovered about the holocaust?
8. What would have happened with the Germans being in alliance with the japanese who were busy attacking British colonies in the far east?
9. After Hitler had enslaved Europe then where else was he going to conquer afterwards?
10. You are a bit simplistic about WW1, most historians blame the Germans as the controlling power who gave AH the go ahead.
11. So are you saying America was systematically killing black people by the million? The holocaust is the same as discrimination?
12. Yes Hitler conscripted and forced many nationalities to fight for him. You see that as a positive? They would have been shot or enslaved otherwise. You think the SS were just?
13. You are justifying Hitler and the holocaust because of what happened to Native Americans?
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by Ferrograd)

Often, WW2 is presented as a just war because it was against Nazi Germany, a fascist state that had genocidal policies towards its Jewish population. But Britain didn't go to war with Germany because of how it treated its Jews.
No. However it could have been one of extra-motivations for people like Winston Churchill.

(Original post by Ferrograd)
Britain went to war with Germany merely because it invaded Poland, and it didnt' want to see its own interests harmed. Maybe it wasn't known then, but documents suggest that Hitler had no plans to invade or annex Britain, and that instead he planned to form an alliance. Of course, we should have never sided with such an abohorrent state.
Although I can agree with the argument, I have to add it was a blessing that the West was determined to fight Hitler anyway. If Hitler had not attacked the Soviet Union and if the West did not decide to fight back, the central and east-European Jewry would be done for, and just after them, all the Slavs. The General Plan Ost assumed that all the Slavs should either be exterminated or turned into slaves who can't read or write.

n one of extra-motivations for people like Winston Churchill.

(Original post by Ferrograd)
It also seems blatantly hypocritical for America to somehow fight the Nazis and criticise their polices towards the Jews when they were also discriminating against black people at the time, who couldn't even command their own troops in combat or sit on the same buses as the whites. Perhaps this is not known to some, and I only found out recently, but Hitler actually allowed non whites, such as Africans, Arabs, Indians and Central Asians to fight for Germany by forming their own SS legions and the like. Of course this was to cripple empires and the soviet union that the Reich was fighting against, but its still hypocritical of the americans when they had genocided the Indians

While US' attitude towards Blacks was disgraceful for may years, it would have been an insult that their attitude or policies were anywhere remotely similar to what the Nazi Germans were doing.
I mean, it wasn't a common practice in the US to smash toddlers by lamposts, just because they were of different race or religion, while this is exactly what the Germans were doing.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
No. However it could have been one of extra-motivations for people like Winston Churchill.



Although I can agree with the argument, I have to add it was a blessing that the West was determined to fight Hitler anyway. If Hitler had not attacked the Soviet Union and if the West did not decide to fight back, the central and east-European Jewry would be done for, and just after them, all the Slavs. The General Plan Ost assumed that all the Slavs should either be exterminated or turned into slaves who can't read or write.

n one of extra-motivations for people like Winston Churchill.




While US' attitude towards Blacks was disgraceful for may years, it would have been an insult that their attitude or policies were anywhere remotely similar to what the Nazi Germans were doing.
I mean, it wasn't a common practice in the US to smash toddlers by lamposts, just because they were of different race or religion, while this is exactly what the Germans were doing.
Of course, the means justify the ends and we were right as such to fight the Nazis, although admittedly the allied contribution is not as great and their losses weren't as great as the west would have you to believe. Certainly the USSR were central to destroying the Nazi reigime, although it is unclear if they would have done so if Hitler hadn't launched Barbarossa.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by 999tigger)
1. So you believe it was unjust and the Nazis were right?
2. We were in alliance with Poland and Hitler invaded Poland.
3. Hitler at the time was in the habit of making promises and breaking them hence he wasnt to be trusted.
4.You say merely because it invaded Poland when in fact he had trained himself a massive army and by the time he invaded Poland it was clear he was only just starting.
5. He had plans to invade the UK, but not till affer he had invaded Europe on the way which he did.
6. He would have preferred the UK stayed out of it because he wanted to invade Russia.
7. Had we been in alliance then what would have happened once we discovered about the holocaust?
8. What would have happened with the Germans being in alliance with the japanese who were busy attacking British colonies in the far east?
9. After Hitler had enslaved Europe then where else was he going to conquer afterwards?
10. You are a bit simplistic about WW1, most historians blame the Germans as the controlling power who gave AH the go ahead.
11. So are you saying America was systematically killing black people by the million? The holocaust is the same as discrimination?
12. Yes Hitler conscripted and forced many nationalities to fight for him. You see that as a positive? They would have been shot or enslaved otherwise. You think the SS were just?
13. You are justifying Hitler and the holocaust because of what happened to Native Americans?
Did you even read a word of what I said? I never said the Nazis were right. I just said the war was not about helping an oppressed people like the jews,m but rather defending Anglo-French interests.

Britain got involved in WW1 because Germany invaded that tiny country called Belgium, we lost millions of men because of it. Different circumstances, but Britain wouldn't have got involved in WW2 or 1 if they hadn't made alliances with a coutnry that had been attacked.

Remember Britain quite happely watched Hitler annex the Sudetenland and then still watched when he annexed Czechoslovakia.

No, I never said the americans were killing the blacks in the millions, if you read that I say that they weren't genociding them, but they were persecuting them just like the Nazis persecuted jews. And Britain and France certainly weren't heroes, they had carried out genocides of their own and Britain was the one who invented the concentration camp.

Some were forced to fight for him, those who were captured, but many were actually volunteers. Volunteers in British colonies or in Soviet Republics, like Indians, Turkmenistanis, who had their own reasons, mostly because the Germans promised them independence and in general the people in European colonies sided with the germans in ww1, as well as their own antisemitism etc.

I am NOT justifying the holocaust, SS, or hitler or whatever. I'm just offering a different perspective, that britain and the allies foguht not for the freedom of jews, but to protect countries they had allied themselves with or their own interests.

As for the people in the colonies, would they actually noticed any difference? Whether they were under the Germans or British they would still have been an oppressed people.


Please actually read before raging.
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username4914582
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Britain, America and many of the other allies in WWII were democracies with human rights, accountable government, and, while I’m not suggesting any of their records on race and ethnicity were good, they were saints compared to the Nazis. So why is there anything wrong with them defending their interests?

Why does it matter what someone’s motivations are for doing a good thing, if at the end of the day the result was just. Even if the motivations were not just, the war itself was, because the alternative was to allow the survival and expansion of the Nazi regime.
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Drewski
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
Britain went to war with Germany merely because it invaded Poland, and it didnt' want to see its own interests harmed. Maybe it wasn't known then, but documents suggest that Hitler had no plans to invade or annex Britain, and that instead he planned to form an alliance.
Yes, it did. But it also told Germany that that would be the consequence of the action they were threatening.

Germany still decided to undertake those actions knowing what would result.

And they most definitely did have plans to invade mainland UK. Operation Sealion.

It can maybe be argued that they didn't want to invade the mainland - let's not forget British territory was invaded and occupied during the war, the Channel Islands were invaded and occupied until 1945 - but that doesn't mean they didn't think about trying.
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mqb2766
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The Eugenics programme
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...es-1-episode-1
Last night was quite interesting, discussing what the US, UK, and Churchill thought of disabled people, jews etc. Not in the same league as Germany became, but not very comfortable viewing either.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
Did you even read a word of what I said? I never said the Nazis were right. I just said the war was not about helping an oppressed people like the jews,m but rather defending Anglo-French interests.

Britain got involved in WW1 because Germany invaded that tiny country called Belgium, we lost millions of men because of it. Different circumstances, but Britain wouldn't have got involved in WW2 or 1 if they hadn't made alliances with a coutnry that had been attacked.

Remember Britain quite happely watched Hitler annex the Sudetenland and then still watched when he annexed Czechoslovakia.

No, I never said the americans were killing the blacks in the millions, if you read that I say that they weren't genociding them, but they were persecuting them just like the Nazis persecuted jews. And Britain and France certainly weren't heroes, they had carried out genocides of their own and Britain was the one who invented the concentration camp.

Some were forced to fight for him, those who were captured, but many were actually volunteers. Volunteers in British colonies or in Soviet Republics, like Indians, Turkmenistanis, who had their own reasons, mostly because the Germans promised them independence and in general the people in European colonies sided with the germans in ww1, as well as their own antisemitism etc.

I am NOT justifying the holocaust, SS, or hitler or whatever. I'm just offering a different perspective, that britain and the allies foguht not for the freedom of jews, but to protect countries they had allied themselves with or their own interests.

As for the people in the colonies, would they actually noticed any difference? Whether they were under the Germans or British they would still have been an oppressed people.


Please actually read before raging.
I really hope for your sake you arent or havent studied History otherwise you have problems.

You pose the issue was it a just war and then you go all over the place offering irrelevant and unexplained facts. Its the failure to link and the irrelevance of those facts which are most disturbing and completely undermine taking your argument seriously.
It is unclear what your point is as it isnt even a question.

War is just in the eyes of the beholder, so for Hitler it was just and he had his reasons.

You then make some statements about why Britain went to War.

1. Only you raised the issue of Britain going to war over the Jews. Nobody ever said that was the case and the extreme treatment of the jews ending in the Holocaust hadnt even begun at the time war was declared. Hard to go to war over an event that hasnt happened. That is why your point is stupid.

2. Britain went to war due to its alliance with Poland and the realisation that Hitler had ambitions to dominate Europe. He wasnt to be trusted as he lied and broke promises. Why didnt we go to war when he marched into the sudentenland? Because we were busy trying to negotiate and avoid war. When a country you have a self defence alliance with is attacked you are bound to defend them, which is what happened, even though there was little we could do. Hitler attacked Poland and not the other way round. he was warned but chose to ignore.

3. By the time the early parts of the holocaust began in Summer 1942 Britain had already fought the Germans off in the battle of Britain and was fully at war. This idea that Hitler wanted to be friends should be taken with a massive pinch of salt and lacks any credibility. Hitler wanted to conquer Europe and Russia and when he had established that his eyes would have turned to Britain and the empire.

4. Your ramblings about the US are irrelevant.
5. Comments on WW1 irrelevant.
6. Points about other nations fighting for Hitler almost irrelevant. They cam from occupied territories, there were some volunteers, but a large amount of them were conscripted or forced to join or join the labour camps. You miss the point from all the occupied nations troops fled to the UK to be trained and fight the Germans.

Do you offer a different perspective? Not really.

You raise a potential question, but fail to develop it in any meaningful or coherent way. Have another go.

Will you even be studying WW2?
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
Of course, the means justify the ends and we were right as such to fight the Nazis, although admittedly the allied contribution is not as great and their losses weren't as great as the west would have you to believe. Certainly the USSR were central to destroying the Nazi reigime, although it is unclear if they would have done so if Hitler hadn't launched Barbarossa.
Depends. While the USSR was nowhere near being a good uncle, it could have happened anyway as Stalin considered invading Europe. It appears the beating the USSR has taken from Nazi Germany, made Stalin to think differently on international relations and being more generous for other nations. Also the war has done one the hell of a damage to the Soviet economy and human resources, so Stalin had to give up any plans of expanding his empire further to the West.
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by Ferrograd)

Remember Britain quite happely watched Hitler annex the Sudetenland and then still watched when he annexed Czechoslovakia.
And that was a mistake.

If Britain was such trigger-happy as it had been with WWI, the combined forces of the West and Poland could have destroyed the Nazi Germany before the summer of 1940.
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999tigger
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
And that was a mistake.

If Britain was such trigger-happy as it had been with WWI, the combined forces of the West and Poland could have destroyed the Nazi Germany before the summer of 1940.
Not really imo it was unprepared and didnt have the forces mobilised.
On what version are you relying for Britain being trigger happy in WW1?
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Bee Muza
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I understand what you are saying and it’s a fantastic argument but acknowledge that Germany was becoming a sincere problem. It was not only it’s invasion of Poland that led to WW2. Remember when The Allied Powers agreed to give Germany areas of the Sudetenland at the Munich Agreement and Hitler went on to want to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia. Even so Hitler wanted war if he didn’t why was he building his military force to 36 divisions. He questioned the Allied Powers authority by signing the Nazi Soviet Pact. Germany deserved what came to them. They asked for war and they got it. Though I highly agree with you on America’s involvement I cannot counterattack that is a very strong argument there.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by Bee Muza)
I understand what you are saying and it’s a fantastic argument but acknowledge that Germany was becoming a sincere problem. It was not only it’s invasion of Poland that led to WW2. Remember when The Allied Powers agreed to give Germany areas of the Sudetenland at the Munich Agreement and Hitler went on to want to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia. Even so Hitler wanted war if he didn’t why was he building his military force to 36 divisions. He questioned the Allied Powers authority by signing the Nazi Soviet Pact. Germany deserved what came to them. They asked for war and they got it. Though I highly agree with you on America’s involvement I cannot counterattack that is a very strong argument there.
Yeah I'm not disputing they wanted war, war was central to their way of thinking.
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Ferrograd
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I think this video really sums it up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjbsD-TYi3s

Goebbels absolutely schools that American officer
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999tigger
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(Original post by Bee Muza)
I understand what you are saying and it’s a fantastic argument but acknowledge that Germany was becoming a sincere problem. It was not only it’s invasion of Poland that led to WW2. Remember when The Allied Powers agreed to give Germany areas of the Sudetenland at the Munich Agreement and Hitler went on to want to invade the rest of Czechoslovakia. Even so Hitler wanted war if he didn’t why was he building his military force to 36 divisions. He questioned the Allied Powers authority by signing the Nazi Soviet Pact. Germany deserved what came to them. They asked for war and they got it. Though I highly agree with you on America’s involvement I cannot counterattack that is a very strong argument there.
On what planet is it a fantastic argument?
Feel free to point it out.
He hasnt even formed a coherent question or argument.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by 999tigger)
On what planet is it a fantastic argument?
Feel free to point it out.
He hasnt even formed a coherent question or argument.
My argument is is that we portray WW2 as some kind of fight against fascism when really it was just imperial powers fighting against each other......
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999tigger
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
My argument is is that we portray WW2 as some kind of fight against fascism when really it was just imperial powers fighting against each other......
Which is untrue.
You dont seem to be able to handle the idea that the war changed in its nature as it progressed.
It was justified in its start and more than justified when we discovered what kind of enemy we were fighting.

You write that in your essays GCSE or whatever you are taking and see what mark you get.

Btw that wasnt your title. You keep changing or you arent expressing yourself very well.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Which is untrue.
You dont seem to be able to handle the idea that the war changed in its nature as it progressed.
It was justified in its start and more than justified when we discovered what kind of enemy we were fighting.

You write that in your essays GCSE or whatever you are taking and see what mark you get.

Btw that wasnt your title. You keep changing or you arent expressing yourself very well.
Put it this way: would we have gone to war with Germany had Poland peacefully handed over Danzig to Germany?

No.

Britain and France couldn't have cared less about the Jews, even if they didn't know to the full extent they were suffering.

They could have intervened on a humanitarian basis. We quite happily justified going to war with Yugoslavia because of the genocides of Bosnians, kosovars etc.

America certainly didn't care in WW2, hell, it would have quite happily supplied both sides. They only joined in because Japan attacked Pearl Habour and Germany declared war on the USA.

Considering I got a grade 8 in history and am doing it at A-Level, I think its safe to say my essay writing skills are more than okay. So don't try and patronise me.
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999tigger
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
Put it this way: would we have gone to war with Germany had Poland peacefully handed over Danzig to Germany?

No.

Britain and France couldn't have cared less about the Jews, even if they didn't know to the full extent they were suffering.

They could have intervened on a humanitarian basis. We quite happily justified going to war with Yugoslavia because of the genocides of Bosnians, kosovars etc.

America certainly didn't care in WW2, hell, it would have quite happily supplied both sides. They only joined in because Japan attacked Pearl Habour and Germany declared war on the USA.

Considering I got a grade 8 in history and am doing it at A-Level, I think its safe to say my essay writing skills are more than okay. So don't try and patronise me.
1. Except Germany invaded Poland despite being warned, which left Britain with no choice. You seem to live in an fantasy.
2. You keep going on about the jews, except nobody except you has ever pretended that the reason the ware started was to do with the jews. You seem to have some sort of time machine and fail to understand the sequence of events. If you did you wouldnt come up with your crazy idea which no one else has ever put forward.
3. By the time we found out about the Jews and then the final solution it was just an extra factor to make sure the Allies were fighting an evil enemy. A lot of the camps were only discovered when the allies retook occupied territory.
4. We couldnt have intervened on a humanitarian basis which shows your lack of understanding of how Europe was retaken and the difficulties in conducting military operations.
5.Why are you going off on a tangent to discuss Yugoslavia, that was a different time and situation. Nothing like WW2, which was a full actual war.
6. Whats your evidence America didnt really care? Once they were in they were committed. But again why are you going off on a tangent which has nothing to do with your original point.
7. A level is a bit of a step up, but if you got grade 8 at GCSE that doesnt say a lot for GCSE and your ability to construct an argument. You jump all over the place. Pick your argument, explain it and then support it with relevant points.
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