Rory Stewart leaves the Tories Watch

Fullofsurprises
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Smack)
An election would risk a Johnson majority though. The current situation, however ludicrous, at least prevents a hard Brexit.
I think a general election would be a real test for Corbyn, yes - and he did well in the last one, admittedly against a much more amateurish and off-beam campaign than Johnson and Cummings are likely to run - but I don't think it works well in the current situation to keep saying 'we'll wait until there's a deal or no deal' - the Corbyn line - as there will almost certainly continue to be limbo under another extension before too long. How long is Corbyn proposing we go without a government?
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fallen_acorns
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#82
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#82
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I think a general election would be a real test for Corbyn, yes - and he did well in the last one, admittedly against a much more amateurish and off-beam campaign than Johnson and Cummings are likely to run - but I don't think it works well in the current situation to keep saying 'we'll wait until there's a deal or no deal' - the Corbyn line - as there will almost certainly continue to be limbo under another extension before too long. How long is Corbyn proposing we go without a government?
the only arguement that I can see for waiting longer than right after the next extension, is the one that hopes boris self-destructs over time, so better wait and just let him slowly wittle away his support.

The problem with that seems to be that his polling is staying steady, despite all of his setbacks, and has even by the worse accounts only declined a bit from his honeymoon period after being made leader. The steady fact of the polling over the past 2 months is simple: There are more remainers than leavers, but if boris can win over the majority of the brexit party vote, and retain his core right-wing tory vote.. he will win, simply because the remainers are to split, and there is no easy way for them to unify, because neither the lib dems or labour will join up.

So for me, waiting for boris' base to turn on him, is a bit like waiting for trumps base to turn.. its not going to happen. There is a good core 35% of people who actually support a hard brexit, and support the exact road boris is taking currently. There seems to be another 10 or so % who are iffy on brexit, but are to right-wing to vote for any of the other parties, so will go along with him no matter what anyway. Bar a huge huge scandal, I don't see the numbers changing much. And how much bigger of a scandal can you get than the supreme court case? which doesn't seem to have shifted the needle much at all.
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BrexitPopulist
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Wired_1800)
1. I dont know about Burton, but I am not alone in supporting UK’s exit from the EU. Some of my friends want that to happen, but we want a decent deal. I agree that we are in the minority and other Labour members think we are closet Tories. I debated a Labour friend who wants to become an MP in the future and she accused me of propping up Johnson with my support of Brexit. I vehemently reject that crass accusation.

2. Blarite politics is small ‘c’ conservatism. Blair was a liar who disowned his Party IMHO to dine with the enemies. I was in favour of a unity candidate like Chuka Umunna, but he showed his disdain for the whole Party, which annoyed me.

3. That is the error that people like you make. They underestimate Corbyn because they live in the bubbles and engage with people like yourself. Tbe country is aching and in pain, we need radical and deep societal changes to years of unfairness and declining prosperity. People claimed that Theresa May would end Corbyn’s leadership, but then he secured 30 more seats. Don't underestimate Corbyn and his support.
Blair was a zealot neoliberal globalist and always was. He is still a member of the Labour Party along with mandelson, Adonis etc. Chucka snd other centrists (2/3 of the party) are just more of the same

I don’t underestimate Corbyn and actually respect his tenacity. It was glorious seeing him humiliate Theresa May and people like Dan Hodges in 2017.

There is also admittedly a small chance he could of course win but as I say he’s getting on and will be replaced with another centrist who will destroy the Brexit project.
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Wired_1800
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#84
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#84
(Original post by BrexitPopulist)
Blair was a zealot neoliberal globalist and always was. He is still a member of the Labour Party along with mandelson, Adonis etc. Chucka snd other centrists (2/3 of the party) are just more of the same

I don’t underestimate Corbyn and actually respect his tenacity. It was glorious seeing him humiliate Theresa May and people like Dan Hodges in 2017.

There is also admittedly a small chance he could of course win but as I say he’s getting on and will be replaced with another centrist who will destroy the Brexit project.
Let us see how things go.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Oh yea, let's not risk letting the will of the people actually happen. #Democracy
Sorry, who actually voted for no deal? I don't remember that being on the ballot paper, and I distinctly remember being told it would be the easiest deal in history by the leave campaigns
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Smack
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I think a general election would be a real test for Corbyn, yes - and he did well in the last one, admittedly against a much more amateurish and off-beam campaign than Johnson and Cummings are likely to run - but I don't think it works well in the current situation to keep saying 'we'll wait until there's a deal or no deal' - the Corbyn line - as there will almost certainly continue to be limbo under another extension before too long. How long is Corbyn proposing we go without a government?
The current limbo situation has its advantages for Corbyn. If there is a general election, Labour would probably lose it again, and I'm not sure how tenable Corbyn's position would be after two failed general elections. Yes, he did much better than expected in 2017, against the worst Tory campaign in a long time in what was essentially a presidential election, but I'm not aware of any other elections with him at the head that have gone well for Labour.

The current situation isn't sustainable, but it's at least allowing Corbyn to at least have a bit of cake and eat it too in that he gets to remain leader of the opposition, against a chaotic and incompetent minority government, but not have to risk his own position and a Tory majority in an election.
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BrexitPopulist
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Sorry, who actually voted for no deal? I don't remember that being on the ballot paper, and I distinctly remember being told it would be the easiest deal in history by the leave campaigns
We voted for LEAVE which if you read the government leaflet they sent out said leaving the single market and customs union.

Sorry, but you are a remain voter: you do not get to decide what it is we voted for. You don't have to accept it or like it - by all means vote for Lib Dem’s to reverse it. That is your democratic right. But don’t infringe on ours..
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BrexitPopulist
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
He's going to try to use the EU's inevitable rejection of his sloppy half-baked proposal as FINAL PROOF that the EU ARE NASTY and take that back to the House and argue that therefore he can't be bound by it as the EU won't play ball.

Cumming's cunning plans seem to become more and more pathetically transparent as time goes on.
Possibly.

I think Cummings strategy is either making it up on the hoof.

Or

Literally saying or doing anything in order to achieve either Brexit or a general election by the 31st October and then leaving with no deal automatically.*

Imagine a car race, and he’s almost at the finish line but his car is falling apart, virtually no gas, pieces keep falling off.... he has to get out and drag it at times it he’s almost at the finish line.

Cummings will always have a place in my heart for sacking the 21 rebels👍🏻
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#89
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#89
(Original post by BrexitPopulist)
We voted for LEAVE which if you read the government leaflet they sent out said leaving the single market and customs union.

Sorry, but you are a remain voter: you do not get to decide what it is we voted for. You don't have to accept it or like it - by all means vote for Lib Dem’s to reverse it. That is your democratic right. But don’t infringe on ours..
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Smack specified blocking a no deal brexit, which Burton called denying the will of the people. Since the vote at no point specified the details of leaving - whether it would be to EFTA terms, a comprehensive deal, no deal etc, and no deal is not the only version possible, blocking no deal is not blocking leaving, and since we don't know what type of departure is wanted, since that was never asked, it's not blocking "the will of the people".
Last edited by Stiff Little Fingers; 2 weeks ago
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BrexitPopulist
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#90
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#90
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Smack specified blocking a no deal brexit, which Burton called denying the will of the people. Since the vote at no point specified the details of leaving - whether it would be to EFTA terms, a comprehensive deal, no deal etc, and no deal is not the only version possible, blocking no deal is not blocking leaving, and since we don't know what type of departure is wanted, since that was never asked, it's not blocking "the will of the people".
Virtually everyone saying this is a remain voter. It is clearly a cynical move done in bad faith.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#91
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#91
(Original post by BrexitPopulist)
Virtually everyone saying this is a remain voter. It is clearly a cynical move done in bad faith.
Eh, to deal in good faith the other party needs to be one you can trust, but beyond that anything that blocks the stochastic terrorist Farage from his goals is good, even more so when no deal would be uniquely destructive to this country. Still remains the case that no deal is not "the will of the people"
Last edited by Stiff Little Fingers; 2 weeks ago
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Andrew97
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#92
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#92
Stewart hasn’t got a chance against Khan. All he will do is take the soft Tory vote away from Bailey and the right wing Lib Dem vote. Khan will comfortably beat Stewart.
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BrexitPopulist
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Eh, to deal in good faith the other party needs to be one you can trust, but beyond that anything that blocks the stochastic terrorist Farage from his goals is good, even more so when no deal would be uniquely destructive to this country. Still remains the case that no deal is not "the will of the people"
It’s not about trust, it’s about a group of people who are ideologically opposed to brexit using any means at their disposal to stop it.

Someone who labels Farage a ‘terrorist’ isn’t in any fit mental state to be the judge of anything I’m afraid. 👍🏻
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Burton Bridge
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#94
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#94
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I ticked the rep box, but I don't agree with all of that - I think the Green Party, like other parties, attracts a mixed bag - there are some very clever people in it with clear thinking and also some total muppets.

Please desist in future from publicly agreeing with me as it brings my status down a notch or two. (joke)
I knew it was a joke

I'm not saying every green voter is a clown, let me be clear its perfectly acceptable to be concerned about the environment and vote green for this reason. But and it's a big but, I am saying the green party are clowns. I mean look at Caroline Lucas resent proposal for a female cabinet to 'sort out' brexit. Abolishing female prisons, not by making female criminals go to make prisons, oh no just dont send women to jail. Make it legal to join ISIS what's that if it's not looney? Not to mention their apostle of nuclear energy.

Sorry mate normal service resumes - stick em up :catfight:
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Burton Bridge
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#95
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#95
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I think a general election would be a real test for Corbyn, yes - and he did well in the last one, admittedly against a much more amateurish and off-beam campaign than Johnson and Cummings are likely to run - but I don't think it works well in the current situation to keep saying 'we'll wait until there's a deal or no deal' - the Corbyn line - as there will almost certainly continue to be limbo under another extension before too long. How long is Corbyn proposing we go without a government?
I predict quite a while, at the moment they can pass laws while in opposition, I think they will try to get 16 year olds the vote after 31st October and before an election.
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Burton Bridge
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#96
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#96
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Sorry, who actually voted for no deal? I don't remember that being on the ballot paper, and I distinctly remember being told it would be the easiest deal in history by the leave campaigns
How is this question relevant? This is what vexes me, you guys claim to hold superior intelligence but fail to follow conversation, time and time again.

I was not talking about no deal or anyone voting for no deal I was talking to Smack 's crass undemocratic comment, I quote

An election would risk a Johnson majority though. The current situation, however ludicrous, at least prevents a hard Brexit.

Under no twist of reality could you state I was implying people voted for no deal. While we are on this topic a new party with no manifesto and one policy which happened to be a no deal brexit won 31% of the vote in the EU elections.

All this people did not vote no deal BS, people did not vote no deal in the 2016 referendum, but people did not vote for a a deal either - we just voted to leave ... I thank you
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Burton Bridge
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#97
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#97
(Original post by BrexitPopulist)
We voted for LEAVE which if you read the government leaflet they sent out said leaving the single market and customs union.

Sorry, but you are a remain voter: you do not get to decide what it is we voted for. You don't have to accept it or like it - by all means vote for Lib Dem’s to reverse it. That is your democratic right. But don’t infringe on ours..
Hear hear
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Burton Bridge
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#98
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#98
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
blocks the stochastic terrorist Farage from his goals is good,
Are you for real?
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Burton Bridge
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#99
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#99
(Original post by BrexitPopulist)
Wired_1800 Burton Bridge

Ah 2 labour brexiteers, interesting.

1: not that you have a plethora of choice but how can you justify supporting a party whose bulk of MPs and Membership are not only pro remain and would view you as morally suspect but also would take us back into the EU given half a chance?

2: When Corbyn croaks it, isn’t (and what it represents) dead as a movement? I can see a ‘centre-left’ ‘unity’ candidate like Lucy Powell or someone go full Blairite..

3: whilst I am sympathetic to Corbyn’s anti war policies and anti austerity, let’s be honest they haven’t got a hope in hell.
I'm a traditional socialist, socialists tend to dislike neoliberal right wing organisations like the EU. Its amazing how times change, its thatcherite figures that are trying to get us out if the Margarget Thatcher creation of the common market and the supposed left wing that are trying to keep the status quo of the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. The exact opposite of the 1975 referendum and poltical situation when labour was socialist.I've was a member of labour for just over a decade I joined when blair slung his hook. I campaigned and was delighted when Ed Miliband got leader, I was absolutely gutted when we lost in 2015, I predicted it was a black day for fairness and equality that would last decades, Its not looking like I was wrong.

Anyway you're questions

1) I think that's incorrect. Labours MPs are pro remain, they are acting machiavellian to revoke the referendum. Dispite lying to the British electorate so they can keep their jobs, but bar that many of my colleagues are (well were) leave. Labour has a problem from it london supporters and northern supporters.

2) I've never thought Corbyn was the right man, hes no Tony benn or Michael foot. The future of the labour party is probably neoliberal but they will always be further left then the illiberal undemocratic party

3 disagree, socialism is not dead far from it.the NHS proves that the NHS is the last but if socialism left in this sea of capitalism and that's not though the rights lack of trying to get rid of it.
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Smack
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#100
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#100
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Oh yea, let's not risk letting the will of the people actually happen. #Democracy
Would you support another referendum if Remain were likely to win it?
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