Should referendum results be honoured? Watch

HiViz9
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Given that the losers will obviously feel aggrieved. Is it not the case that some win and some lose which means you enter the realm of this democratic process in full acceptance of honouring the result: win or lose?
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QE2
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(Original post by HiViz9)
Given that the losers will obviously feel aggrieved. Is it not the case that some win and some lose which means you enter the realm of this democratic process in full acceptance of honouring the result: win or lose?
You seem to be under the delusion that all 17 million Leave voters support May's Deal. They didn't. Many Leave voters rejected it.
But neither do they all support No Deal.
So the only rational, reasonable solution is to have another democratic exercise where the specific options are detailed.

Basically, what we have at the moment is eleven people going out for dinner. 5 want Italian, 3 want Indian and 3 want Chinese. For some reason, each of the 3 groups thinks it has the right to force their preference on the other 8.
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HiViz9
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(Original post by QE2)
You seem to be under the delusion that all 17 million Leave voters support May's Deal. They didn't. Many Leave voters rejected it.
But neither do they all support No Deal.
So the only rational, reasonable solution is to have another democratic exercise where the specific options are detailed.

Basically, what we have at the moment is eleven people going out for dinner. 5 want Italian, 3 want Indian and 3 want Chinese. For some reason, each of the 3 groups thinks it has the right to force their preference on the other 8.
You seem to have assumed I am under a delusion. In no way am I nor have I in any way inferred it. You have introduced your version of the referendum to do with IN/OUT of the EU. I have not mentioned the EU. I clearly cite REFERENDUMS as a principle means of exercising democracy. You cleary think referendums should not be honoured, I, therefore, must conclude that even if you WON a referendum decision you would NOT accept the win. This is the logic of your answer.
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QE2
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(Original post by HiViz9)
You seem to have assumed I am under a delusion. In no way am I nor have I in any way inferred it. You have introduced your version of the referendum to do with IN/OUT of the EU. I have not mentioned the EU. I clearly cite REFERENDUMS as a principle means of exercising democracy. You cleary think referendums should not be honoured, I, therefore, must conclude that even if you WON a referendum decision you would NOT accept the win. This is the logic of your answer.
I don't think referendums should held in the first place. The people are mostly idiots.
If they are held, they should only be implemented if practical, reasonable and beneficial.
Unless specifically legislated for (which the EU one wasn't) they are merely advisory and there is no obligation for any government to implement the result. It has nothing to do with "democracy". It is just an "opinion poll".
Hope this helped.
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HiViz9
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(Original post by QE2)
I don't think referendums should held in the first place. The people are mostly idiots.
If they are held, they should only be implemented if practical, reasonable and beneficial.
Unless specifically legislated for (which the EU one wasn't) they are merely advisory and there is no obligation for any government to implement the result. It has nothing to do with "democracy". It is just an "opinion poll".
Hope this helped.
Its OK... I accept many remainers/all remoaners are dishonest. They will never admit to wanting the referendum to be honored if they had won. This is the duplicity. This is the lie. And, they are all leftie liberals.
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Napp
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(Original post by HiViz9)
Its OK... I accept many remainers/all remoaners are dishonest. They will never admit to wanting the referendum to be honored if they had won. This is the duplicity. This is the lie. And, they are all leftie liberals.
As opposed to crypto-fascists and racists? I mean the fact a the person who assassinated an MP was a brexstremist and another one who plotted a similar murder was speaks volumes.
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Pencil
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Referendums should always be honoured. The chain of command goes:

People > Government > Business > Media >

Although it's probably more like:

Business > Media > Government > People
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999tigger
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(Original post by HiViz9)
Given that the losers will obviously feel aggrieved. Is it not the case that some win and some lose which means you enter the realm of this democratic process in full acceptance of honouring the result: win or lose?
Referendums are advisory only.
The referendum was flawed as there were a number of interpretations about what leaving meant.
Because of this flaw the majority of MPs believe leave meant with a deal.


A general election will give people to express their voice again with a better knowledge of the facts. Presumably a party that gets a majority will find it easier to get through parliament and make things happen.

Not as though there have been many Brexit threads on TSR, well done for originality.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by QE2)
You seem to be under the delusion that all 17 million Leave voters support May's Deal. They didn't. Many Leave voters rejected it.
But neither do they all support No Deal.
So the only rational, reasonable solution is to have another democratic exercise where the specific options are detailed.

Basically, what we have at the moment is eleven people going out for dinner. 5 want Italian, 3 want Indian and 3 want Chinese. For some reason, each of the 3 groups thinks it has the right to force their preference on the other 8.
You seem to be under the dilusion that when people voted to leave they really meant remain under the rule of the EU.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by QE2)
You seem to be under the delusion that all 17 million Leave voters support May's Deal. They didn't. Many Leave voters rejected it.
But neither do they all support No Deal.
So the only rational, reasonable solution is to have another democratic exercise where the specific options are detailed.

Basically, what we have at the moment is eleven people going out for dinner. 5 want Italian, 3 want Indian and 3 want Chinese. For some reason, each of the 3 groups thinks it has the right to force their preference on the other 8.
You missed out the part where one wants a veggie bean burger from McDonald's and that all his ( or hers) mates are vetoing everything that all the others think ( because they promised to listen to the needs of those who like to eat meat but changed their minds after being put in the position of trust by the meat eaters) therefore making everyone else eat that veggie ****e.
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_gcx
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In general, there should be absolutely no question whatsoever about honouring referendums.

What we need is a proper system for referendums or none at all. Clearly defined majority. Reasonably detailed plans should have been presented at the point of the election to also be voted upon, and referendums should only be overruled in the case of a massive change of circumstance. Not liking the results should never be grounds of appeal. Should be legally binding so legal action against the government is pursued if they do not honour the result within the given parameters. Being the one time when people actually get a say in this political system - it's pretty important.

Cameron had no interest in direct democracy. The whole referendum was virtue-signalling on his part.
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_gcx
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(Original post by QE2)
I don't think referendums should held in the first place. The people are mostly idiots.
If they are held, they should only be implemented if practical, reasonable and beneficial.
Unless specifically legislated for (which the EU one wasn't) they are merely advisory and there is no obligation for any government to implement the result. It has nothing to do with "democracy". It is just an "opinion poll".
Hope this helped.
What makes politicians any smarter? Imo this sort of attitude goes against the principles behind democracy. People are belittled for apparently not being able to decide what's good for themselves too often, and it's often done purely to protect the people in power.
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Physics Enemy
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(Original post by HiViz9)
...
First referendum was remain or leave, any subsequent vote should decide the type of leave, not re-introduce the losing option (remain).

I agree that 1) referendums should be legally binding 2) 'leave' should've been more detailed at the outset - saving years of planning, dithering, debate.
Last edited by Physics Enemy; 1 week ago
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fallen_acorns
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Using referendums to make up for the flaws in our political system is like putting a small bandage on a broken leg..

But no, for me they should not always be honored. If there was cheating during the referendum, or if circumstances drastically change after the result, to the extent where they make the result irrelivant or even dangerous.. then no it should not be honored.

The problem is that our politiicans are selling referendums as 'once in a life time decisions' in an age where politics develops so quickly that you can't expect to make these decisions only once. We have a regular voting mechanism (that doesn't work any more) but is sound in its idea, that you can vote again and again as things develop. There is no reason why something like the EU decision should be only a single decision that can never be overturned no matter what for 30-40 years. We should be able to change our minds and continually vote on it as part of the scope of our politics.

The issue with a second referendum here though, is that the result of the first hasn't been implemented yet, and its not conclusive that it can't be implemented (yet). Ideally we want the result of each vote to be implimented in most circumstances, before we then can regularly and continually vote again and again as we do with all our political issues.
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crysaltytears
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(Original post by QE2)
You seem to be under the delusion that all 17 million Leave voters support May's Deal. They didn't. Many Leave voters rejected it.
But neither do they all support No Deal.
So the only rational, reasonable solution is to have another democratic exercise where the specific options are detailed.

Basically, what we have at the moment is eleven people going out for dinner. 5 want Italian, 3 want Indian and 3 want Chinese. For some reason, each of the 3 groups thinks it has the right to force their preference on the other 8.
Except those who want a second referendum wants to stack it in favour of remain by doing 1 of 2 things:

1) exclude No Deal from the ballot, the single most popular choice in the general population
2) insist on revoking Article 50 to remain even if the Leave vote is split and Remain gets less than 50% in a three way vote.

I therefore regard any further referendums on this issue unless the first one has been carried out to be illegitimate.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by HiViz9)
Given that the losers will obviously feel aggrieved. Is it not the case that some win and some lose which means you enter the realm of this democratic process in full acceptance of honouring the result: win or lose?
As soon as you start talking about winners and losers when we are all on the same side you are entering dangerous territory. Countries that have imposed a winner / loser ethos in recent years include the likes of Syria, Venezuela, Egypt and Hong Kong. All were peaceful, civilised and thriving countries. Now look at them.

It is a fool that would suggest such a thing could never happen in this country. That is certainly my fear. Here we have a dictatorial PM being goaded by his supporters to abandon democraticy in order to do democracy. How does that work?
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HiViz9
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(Original post by ByEeek)
As soon as you start talking about winners and losers when we are all on the same side you are entering dangerous territory. Countries that have imposed a winner / loser ethos in recent years include the likes of Syria, Venezuela, Egypt and Hong Kong. All were peaceful, civilised and thriving countries. Now look at them.

It is a fool that would suggest such a thing could never happen in this country. That is certainly my fear. Here we have a dictatorial PM being goaded by his supporters to abandon democraticy in order to do democracy. How does that work?
So you define the purpose of the referendum and what would happen if the REMAINERS won.? Are you saying an IN-OUT referendum can not rely upon the people asked to vote on it? I bet you a million pounds the remainers would be very happy with a vote for remain in EU.
I did not see a question on the voting paper saying.... "you want this referendum to be indecisive" i/e no point in having it?
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QE2
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(Original post by HiViz9)
Its OK... I accept many remainers/all remoaners are dishonest. They will never admit to wanting the referendum to be honored if they had won. This is the duplicity. This is the lie. And, they are all leftie liberals.
Please explain which parts of my post are untrue.
Like many Leavers, you don't really seem to understand what is going on.
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Andrew97
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Ideally, yes. There’s no point in having a referendum if you only intend to follow a certain result.
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QE2
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(Original post by Napp)
As opposed to crypto-fascists and racists? I mean the fact a the person who assassinated an MP was a brexstremist and another one who plotted a similar murder was speaks volumes.
ikr
Why do Brexitists think that "liberal left" is a pejorative? I'd have it on a tattoo.
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