Who would be to blame if EU negotiations break down and we leave with no deal? Watch

Poll: Who would be to blame?
The EU (13)
13.68%
The government (35)
36.84%
Parliament (as a whole) (17)
17.89%
May’s Government (5)
5.26%
The ERG (12)
12.63%
The remain alliance. (13)
13.68%
imlikeahermit
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#21
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#21
David Cameron.

A matter of this economic significance and magnitude should never have been put before the public.
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ColinDent
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#22
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#22
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Which parties do you think represented leave in the EU elections?
Well the brexit party obviously and then Conservatives and also at the time Labour were still pretending to want to uphold the result.
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999tigger
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#23
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#23
More complicated than one option. It is all of them.
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Burton Bridge
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Napp)
Leavers in general. They voted for this after being told repeatedly that it would be a cluster****.
Impossible to be general levers fault, the blame has to be placed on those who have made it a cluster**** as you put it.

I fail to see how this is the fault if anyone other than remainer parliamentarians who stood on pro brexit manifestos, acting dishonesty to gain the poltical points.
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Burton Bridge
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#25
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#25
(Original post by 999tigger)
More complicated than one option. It is all of them.
Have too agree with this apart from dispite what I've just typed above, the blame must be shared out. Mays government must take some responsibility, parliament as a whole must and the remain alliance certainly should.

I voted remain alliance but on reflection I think I should of voted parliament as a whole.
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SHallowvale
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#26
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#26
(Original post by ColinDent)
Well the brexit party obviously and then Conservatives and also at the time Labour were still pretending to want to uphold the result.
Okay. So if votes for leave supporting parties in the 2019 election accurately reflects the intentions of 2016 leave voters then just under 60% of leave voters in 2016 support a no deal Brexit. If the public haven't changed their minds since 2016, then that means only 31%~ of the public support a no deal... which is a little bit less than 48%. I think I'm with Napp on this one.

(Percentages calculated as the proportion of votes for the Brexit Party, UKIP, Conservatives, Labour and the DUP that went to the Brexit Party or UKIP).
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ColinDent
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#27
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#27
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Okay. So if votes for leave supporting parties in the 2019 election accurately reflects the intentions of 2016 leave voters then just under 60% of leave voters in 2016 support a no deal Brexit. If the public haven't changed their minds since 2016, then that means only 31%~ of the public support a no deal... which is a little bit less than 48%. I think I'm with Napp on this one.

(Percentages calculated as the proportion of votes for the Brexit Party, UKIP, Conservatives, Labour and the DUP that went to the Brexit Party or UKIP).
But the question has been what did we who voted to leave want, as per the argument against any kind of brexit by remain MPs.
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999tigger
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#28
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#28
(Original post by ColinDent)
But the question has been what did we who voted to leave want, as per the argument against any kind of brexit by remain MPs.
Which is why it was flawed. Nobody envisaged 4 years of torment over negotiations.
Might have reflected will of the voters in 2016, but questionable if that holds now people know whats happened as well as the large % who didnt vote at all. Hindsight shows us the referendum was massively flawed and thats why weve been thrashing around ever since. One of the worst things to ever happen to the UK for the division and tedium it has caused.
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SHallowvale
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#29
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#29
(Original post by ColinDent)
But the question has been what did we who voted to leave want, as per the argument against any kind of brexit by remain MPs.
Exactly. Some 59%~ of the population isn't much to write home about, especially since the 2016 vote was to a very small margin.
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SHallowvale
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#30
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#30
(Original post by 999tigger)
Which is why it was flawed. Nobody envisaged 4 years of torment over negotiations.
Might have reflected will of the voters in 2016, but questionable if that holds now people know whats happened as well as the large % who didnt vote at all. Hindsight shows us the referendum was massively flawed and thats why weve been thrashing around ever since. One of the worst things to ever happen to the UK for the division and tedium it has caused.
Indeed. Even if the 2019 elections were a reflection of 2016 intentions, that still leaves us with division and no consensus on anything.
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Justvisited
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Napp)
Leavers in general. They voted for this after being told repeatedly that it would be a cluster****.
One thing the Remain campaign never said, because it dared not say it, was that the EU would try to pull all sorts of tricks to keep the UK in de facto even if they voted to leave. If anything the fact that the EU have indeed being doing this is a further cogent argument not to trust them and not to continue part of them.
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999tigger
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Justvisited)
One thing the Remain campaign never said, because it dared not say it, was that the EU would try to pull all sorts of tricks to keep the UK in de facto even if they voted to leave. If anything the fact that the EU have indeed being doing this is a further cogent argument not to trust them and not to continue part of them.
What tricks have they used to keep us in?
I dislike them, but they have just said leave, but if you want a deal then we will do our best to get the best one for the EU as possible. We can still leave. Boris doesnt have the majority, which is why he is weak and something he exploited against May.
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SHallowvale
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Justvisited)
One thing the Remain campaign never said, because it dared not say it, was that the EU would try to pull all sorts of tricks to keep the UK in de facto even if they voted to leave. If anything the fact that the EU have indeed being doing this is a further cogent argument not to trust them and not to continue part of them.
What do you mean by "de facto"? How exactly would that work?

There have several ways we could leave the EU with a deal that the EU would accept. None of them would leave us as "de facto" members since our relationship would have significantly changed.
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ColinDent
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#34
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#34
(Original post by 999tigger)
Which is why it was flawed. Nobody envisaged 4 years of torment over negotiations.
Might have reflected will of the voters in 2016, but questionable if that holds now people know whats happened as well as the large % who didnt vote at all. Hindsight shows us the referendum was massively flawed and thats why weve been thrashing around ever since. One of the worst things to ever happen to the UK for the division and tedium it has caused.
We seem to be going round in circles here, it is those remainer MPs that have been the cause of said torment and I have to congratulate them on the job they have done, but the next government will be a pro brexit one, even if they have to start from scratch.
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ColinDent
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#35
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#35
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Exactly. Some 59%~ of the population isn't much to write home about, especially since the 2016 vote was to a very small margin.
But it is an answer to the question of what we were voting for, and therefore what should be in any mandate to do.
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999tigger
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#36
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#36
(Original post by ColinDent)
We seem to be going round in circles here, it is those remainer MPs that have been the cause of said torment and I have to congratulate them on the job they have done, but the next government will be a pro brexit one, even if they have to start from scratch.
You are ignoring the fact referendums are advisory only.
I agree we should have an election.
Boris has been a massive cause if the issue as they have prevented Mays deal going anywhere, hence its amusing to see him halted by the same tactics he used on May.

If they start from scratch the damage will be done for some people. A big mess that will continue to divide the country because it was flawed.
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AngryJellyfish
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#37
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#37
David Cameron.
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SHallowvale
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#38
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#38
(Original post by ColinDent)
But it is an answer to the question of what we were voting for, and therefore what should be in any mandate to do.
So we should leave without a deal because 59% of 52% of the population voted for a parties that support no deal in a 2019 election?

Even if you ignore the glaring errors in that, you're talking about the whims of some 31% of the population taking precedent over 48%. That's ludicrous and not at all democratic.
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Pigster
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#39
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#39
Easy one this one.

If you ask a leave supporter, then clearly the EU are to blame, I obviously wouldn't be our fault.
If you ask a remain supporter, then clearly we are to blame, I obviously wouldn't be their fault.
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ColinDent
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#40
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#40
(Original post by SHallowvale)
So we should leave without a deal because 59% of 52% of the population voted for a parties that support no deal in a 2019 election?

Even if you ignore the glaring errors in that, you're talking about the whims of some 31% of the population taking precedent over 48%. That's ludicrous and not at all democratic.
I'm saying that all those arguments made by all those remainer MP's about not knowing how to leave because they didn't know what those who voted to leave actually meant are just false arguments, because we know what the majority of us voted for and that is the issue.
Had remain won we wouldn't then have been asking if people meant remain as it is, or with deeper integration or even remain but carry on attempting renegotiation, we would have just remained.
The vote to leave should result in exactly that and nothing less.
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